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Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Thomas the Seeker] #414979 02/14/16 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker
"For the peace of the whole world,
the well being of the Church of God,
and for the unity of all,
let us pray to the Lord".


Amen.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Tomassus] #414980 02/15/16 12:56 AM
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Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Tomassus] #414981 02/15/16 03:08 AM
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It is a really moot point in the DeVille piece in CWR about the Jesuit expulsion from Russia in 1820 given that the order was suppressed by Rome everywhere else but in Russia less than a century earlier.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Tomassus] #414982 02/15/16 03:25 AM
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I was pleased with the meeting, and with the Joint Declaration issued by the two hierarchs.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America #414984 02/15/16 07:13 AM
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The Vatican did everything to accommodate Patriarch Kirill, but received little in return

by Fr Mark Drew
posted Saturday, 13 Feb 2016
CatholicHerald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2016/02/13/the-vatican-did-everything-to-accommodate-patriarch-kirill-but-received-little-in-return/

The Russian patriarch, not Pope Francis, has the most reason to be satisfied after the Havana meeting and joint statement


Last edited by Tomassus; 02/15/16 04:56 PM.
Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America #414985 02/15/16 07:20 AM
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Ukrainian Greek Catholics: "betrayed" by "half-truths" in Francis and Kirill’s Joint Declaration

Marta Allevato
15 February 2016
AsiaNews.it/news-en/Ukrainian-Greek-Catholics:-betrayed-by-half-truths-in-Francis-and-Kirill%E2%80%99s-Joint-Declaration--36684.html

The major archbishop of Kiev speaks of Cuba encounter: a meeting of "two parallel worlds". The Joint Declaration "generally positive" for future cooperation. Points which concern Ukraine “controversial”: the Vatican is being exploited by Russian Orthodox diplomacy. Shevchuk reiterates: the Greek-Catholic Church has never supported the war, provoked by "Russian aggression".


Last edited by Tomassus; 02/15/16 04:59 PM.
Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Tomassus] #414989 02/15/16 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomassus
Ukrainian Greek Catholics: "betrayed" by "half-truths" in Francis and Kirill’s Joint Declaration

Marta Allevato
15 February 2016
AsiaNews.it/news-en/Ukrainian-Greek-Catholics:-betrayed-by-half-truths-in-Francis-and-Kirill%E2%80%99s-Joint-Declaration--36684.html

The major archbishop of Kiev speaks of Cuba encounter: a meeting of "two parallel worlds". The Joint Declaration "generally positive" for future cooperation. Points which concern Ukraine “controversial”: the Vatican is being exploited by Russian Orthodox diplomacy. Shevchuk reiterates: the Greek-Catholic Church has never supported the war, provoked by "Russian aggression".

Moscow (AsiaNews) - The Ukrainian Greek Catholic church feels "betrayed" by the Vatican after the meeting between Pope Francis and the Patriarch of Moscow Kirill, on February 12 in Cuba.

According to the head of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, the major Archbishop of Kiev, Sviatoslav Shevchuk, it was an encounter of "two parallel worlds."

Tomassus: Please note that it is a violation of copyright re-post entire news stories from other websites without permission from those websites. An acceptable method is "fair use", in which you post a few paragraphs (usually the ones you wish to emphasize) and then provide a link to the article itself on the website you found it. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: griego catolico] #414990 02/15/16 04:52 PM
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[quote=griego catolico]Wow, I woke up this morning to learn the news! shocked
Pope Francis has done it again and surprised us!
I am without words.
I had been praying for this to happen with St. John Paul II.

I will definitely be watching the news coverage.

I am concerned especially with what impact this will have on the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, considering that the Russian Orthodox Church has complained about the UGCC being a "problem". I am curious to know if His Beatitide Sviatoslav Shevchuk had any involvement or input.

Dear Griego Amigo,

His Beatitude was not invited to participate in anything related to this meeting as he himself affirmed.

For reasons indicated by His Beatitude and Fr. Prof. Peter Galadza of the Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky Insitute, this event is hugely disappointing to the UGCC.

In Church yesterday our pastor talked about this meeting and said that Christ Himself would be for dialogue - but on His own terms, not those of the world.

Does this Vatican-Moscow diplomacy reflect the Spirit of Christ or that of the world?

Alex

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Mark R] #414991 02/15/16 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark R
... the DeVille piece in CWR ...

I haven't read it, but I think I can imagine it, having read his recent piece "Apologia Pro Unia".

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Tomassus] #415000 02/15/16 09:44 PM
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Me thinks His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk as a major archbishop of a sui juris church has to forge his own way to achieve dialogue with his Orthodox brothers and specifically with the Patriarch of Moscow. Papa Francesco as bishop of Rome and primate of the whole Catholic Church has done an admirable job of forging those initial bonds in Havana. I don't think anyone is really a loser or winner. All have gained by the encounter. I feel confident that there were no half-truths, at least on the part of Francis, expressed during that two hour closed door session.It will be most interesting to learn, even in an abbreviated way, just what transpired. His Beatitude said it well when he explained that we need not read too much into these joint statements. They are deliberately innocuous and make most happy in order to achieve a more enduring result. That the Pope and Patriarch met at all is a remarkable. That they shared a Kiss of Peace and called the other, "Brother" is even more remarkable.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: griego catolico] #415003 02/16/16 09:05 AM
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Quote
25. It is our hope that our meeting may also contribute to reconciliation wherever tensions exist between Greek Catholics and Orthodox. It is today clear that the past method of “uniatism”, understood as the union of one community to the other, separating it from its Church, is not the way to re–establish unity. Nonetheless, the ecclesial communities which emerged
Originally Posted by frank sysyn
It is interesting that the Eastern rite Churches are called only ecclesiastical communities.
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Rev Andriy Chirovsky "very initial comments" on joint declaration signed in Havana today.

...
#25 basically calls us [Eastern Catholics] an “ecclesial community” Moscow wins.

“'uniatism', understood as the union of one community to the other, separating it from its Church, “ is an ambiguous definition. Again, we are just a community. I remember the Quadripartite Commission in 1990: “communities of Catholics of the Byzantine Rite” Studous avoidance of calling us CHURCH.

"Churches refraining from taking part in confrontation” This refers to our Church supporting a defensive war.
So in the end "the ecclesial communities that emerged" are called Churches (and that they need to avoid confrontation). The abjuring of "uniatism" here comes very close in its wording to an implicit official endorsement of THIS facet of the Balamand Statement.

The wording of §25 above is sloppy and I would hope is not a statement about ecclesiology using terms that the Catholic Church has used in the past to distinguish Churches, who have a bishop in Apostolic succession, from ecclesiastical communities who have no such episcopacy. Using some specific cases, here's my close reading of §25 above at "the union of one community to the other, separating it from its Church":

The "one community" at Uzhhorod joined without bishops and was as such what could be called an ecclesiastical community. The "one community" at Brest, however, had bishops and entered the union as Churches. In both of these instances in "the union of one community to the other" the community that is the "other" is the Catholic Church itself. So the Catholic Church is here in its entirety called just a "community." (For the "the ecclesial communities which emerged" the Ukrainians were already Churches and the Sub-Carpathian Rus' were given, eventually, their own episcopacy.)

The only one called a Church is that from which the "one community" separated ("separating it from its Church" as it says), that is, the Orthodox Church at Brest and the particular Orthodox Church or Churches at Uzhhorod.

So, I presume loose wording here was intended; it is certainly the case.



Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Administrator] #415005 02/16/16 11:25 AM
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From First Things and Yale, Cyril Hovorun weighs in with this: "For me, the text of the Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill’s joint declaration came as a surprise, as did their meeting and its location in Havana. This document is significantly better in style and content than any earlier official document or statement from the Russian Orthodox Church. Simply put, the text is less political and more Christian."

And this observation: "The Havana Declaration does not contain any reference to Crimea, but it is quite new for a statement signed by the Russian Patriarch to acknowledge that Ukrainian Greek Catholics can exist. The Declaration also calls the Orthodox to live in peace with them. "

http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2016/02/the-havana-declaration[u][/u]

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: griego catolico] #415006 02/16/16 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by griego catolico
Rev Andriy Chirovsky "very initial comments" on joint declaration signed in Havana today.

"All three paragraphs about Ukraine are very disappointing.
#25 basically calls us [Eastern Catholics] an “ecclesial community” Moscow wins.

“'uniatism', understood as the union of one community to the other, separating it from its Church, “ is an ambiguous definition. Again, we are just a community. I remember the Quadripartite Commission in 1990: “communities of Catholics of the Byzantine Rite” Studous avoidance of calling us CHURCH.
#26 No mention of foreign aggression. Moscow wins.

"Churches refraining from taking part in confrontation” This refers to our Church supporting a defensive war. remember the Feb 5 Press conference, where Ilarion accused us of inciting conflict
#26 The “canonical” language is a way to put down the UOC-KP and UAOC. Moscow decides what is canonical. Catholics need" to contribute to this” instead of "supporting the schismatics” as Ilarion accused us on Feb 5. Moscow Wins"

Source: Religious Information Service of Ukraine Facebook page



A new response by Fr. Andriy Chirovsky on the Havana Declaration: "Called To Unity"

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: griego catolico] #415007 02/16/16 01:55 PM
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[quote=griego catolicoA new response by Fr. Andriy Chirovsky on the Havana Declaration: "Called To Unity" [/quote]

Fr. Andriy is quite disingenuous when he says, "Endless references to the thousand-year estrangement between Rome and Moscow display ignorance of the fact that 1,000 years ago the Patriarchate of Moscow did not exist. It was created in 1589."

Yes, the TITLE of Patriarchate of Moscow was created in 1589, but the SEE was in fact the original metropolis of Kiev which had been transferred to Vladimir in the 13th century and then to Moscow in the 14th. Meanwhile, the Greek Catholic metropolis of Kiev was founded in 1458 so in fact they are the ones claiming a history which is not theirs.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #415008 02/16/16 02:53 PM
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Union of Brest was in 1595, there were no Greek Catholics in 1458.

Actuallay the real disingenuous position is the Russian claim in that the lands under Greek Catholic Bishops in both Polish and Austro-Hungarian territory were not historically part of Russia or canonical Russian Territory. When Orthodox, those lands were subject to the authority of the Patriarchate of Constantinople prior to the fall in 1454 and through the last Orthodox bishops in AH in the late 18th century under the Patriarchate of Serbia if my memory is correct.

Lviv - the real center of Greek Catholicism was not under Tsarist control, later Soviet until much later.

The canonical infringement argument is disingenuous unless you are a pan Slavist or believe in Russky Mir.

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