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Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: DMD] #415009 02/16/16 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by DMD
Union of Brest was in 1595, there were no Greek Catholics in 1458.


This would be news to Metropolitan Isidore.

I would agree with your other arguments re: MP's territorial, canonical claims but the fact is that the MP, for better or worse, is the descendent of the see founded in Kiev in 988.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #415011 02/16/16 08:52 PM
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Moscow usurped the title of the See founded in Kyiv (not the Russian "Kiev" please - your Russophilism is again rearing itself).

That is the point of contention. Perhaps more than one See can lay claim to St Andrew's apostolic foundation.

The FACT remains that St Andrew, even by legend, was in Kyiv (the tradition he was in Constantinople is of similar legendary status) and no Apostle was ever, even by legend, in Moscow.

The Tsars usurped the title and turned the Metropolitan of Kyiv into that of Moscow.

And I thought you didn't like Tsarism . . .

Alex

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #415012 02/16/16 09:00 PM
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Also, DMD is more than correct. "Greek Catholics" historically developed from the Union of Brest. The Orthodox bishops that signed that union called themselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome" or else, later, "Greco-Uniates." "Greek Catholics" as a title came about under the Austro-Hungarian Empire which wanted to juxtapose Greek Catholics to Roman Catholics and the title has stuck until today.

The Union of Florence was short-lived and did not involve the creation of a persisting group of "Greek Catholics" (at best, a misnomer) but of Orthodox bishops and others of Constantinople who came into union with Rome, such as Isidore of Kyiv. They didn't see themselves as having formed a separate church, but as simply having established (some might say "re-established") communion with Rome that existed prior to the great schism.

They did not therefore see themselves as "Greek Catholics" which would have been totally foreign to them on a number of scores (just as the term would have been foreign to the original "Orthodox in communion with Rome" of 1596.

Alex

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: DMD] #415013 02/16/16 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DMD
Union of Brest was in 1595, there were no Greek Catholics in 1458.

Actuallay the real disingenuous position is the Russian claim in that the lands under Greek Catholic Bishops in both Polish and Austro-Hungarian territory were not historically part of Russia or canonical Russian Territory. When Orthodox, those lands were subject to the authority of the Patriarchate of Constantinople prior to the fall in 1454 and through the last Orthodox bishops in AH in the late 18th century under the Patriarchate of Serbia if my memory is correct.

Lviv - the real center of Greek Catholicism was not under Tsarist control, later Soviet until much later.

The canonical infringement argument is disingenuous unless you are a pan Slavist or believe in Russky Mir.


Very, very well stated DMD! Bravo!

Alex

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #415014 02/16/16 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Moscow usurped the title of the See founded in Kyiv (not the Russian "Kiev" please - your Russophilism is again rearing itself).


You might as well say "Damascus usurped the title of the See founded in Antioch." That's how much historical sense your comment makes.

The see moved to Moscow. Kiev (I say Kiev because I speak English) was depopulated at the time. Kiev had been completely devastated in 1240 and didn't really recover, so it made sense for the ecclesiastical center of Rus' to move north. Talking about "Moscow" as a usurping force in the 14th century is rather anachronistic. Rus' was under the Tatar yoke still and an independent Muscovy was yet to come. Moscow was on the ascent but it was hardly a sure thing- the Tatars liked to buttress one city, then another, to keep the Rus' off balance.

Quote
The Tsars usurped the title and turned the Metropolitan of Kyiv into that of Moscow.


That's an impressive feat! As I'm sure you know, the first Tsar was in 1480. He must have been a very holy man to be able to travel back in time to 1325 when the see of Kiev was moved to Moscow.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #415019 02/17/16 05:39 AM
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The Protest of Ukrainian Catholics: “The Pope Supports Russian Aggression”

The archbishop of Kiev gives voice to the bitterness of his faithful, because of the embrace between Francis and the patriarch of Moscow and the “half truths” of the document they signed in Havana

by Sandro Magister
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1351233?eng=y

ROME, February 17, 2016 – At the last conclave at which a Catholic power exercised its right of veto, a little more than a century ago, the cardinal who started out in the lead was ejected from the game because he was pro-French, in favor of a pro-Austrian candidate, who was elected pope with the name of Pius X.

Today the accusation that falls upon Pope Francis is that he is pro-Russian. And the latest of many proofs of this would be the joint declaration he signed with Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and all Rus’, on February 12 at the Havana airport:

> [/url] "By God the Father’s...so.repubblica.it/articolo/1351228?eng=y] Over the Embrace Between Francis and Kirill Falls the Shadow of Putin

And this is what happened. With the epicenter of the reactions being Ukraine and in particular its five million Greek-Catholics.

Their major archbishop, Sviatoslav Shevchuk (in the photo), has said:

"Many contacted me and said that they feel betrayed by the Vatican, disappointed by the half-truth nature of this document, and even see it as indirect support by the Apostolic See for Russian aggression against Ukraine."

The archbishop of Kiev agreed wth these sentiments of his faithful in an extensive interview published Sunday, February 14 in Ukrainian and English on the official website of the Greek-Catholic Church:

> [/url] "Two Parallel Worlds&q...o-da-francesco-e-kirill-da-dimenticare/] Il nunzio in Ucraina sul documento di Francesco e Kirill: "Da dimenticare"

Reproduced [/url] here is the position stateme...so.repubblica.it/articolo/1351233?eng=y] "Two Parallel Worlds": An Interview with His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Tomassus] #415026 02/17/16 12:15 PM
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"Nonetheless, I encourage our faithful not to dramatize this Declaration and not to exaggerate its importance for Church life. We have experienced more than one such statement, and will survive this one as well. We need to remember that our unity and full communion with the Holy Father, the Successor of the Apostle Peter, is not the result of political agreement or diplomatic compromise, or the clarity of a Joint Declaration text. This unity and communion with the Peter of today is a matter of our faith. It is to him, Pope Francis, and to each of us today, that Christ says in the Gospel of Luke: “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

I find this the most significant statement of His Beatitude concerning the whole subject. Oft times the popes are "damned if they do, damned if they don't." Ukrainian Catholics need to get over it, and forge their own good relations with people they aren't especially fond of. I find this animosity over a "joint statement" meant to break the ice, so to speak, ridiculous, and I'm hardly a Russophile.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #415029 02/17/16 04:37 PM
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Peking and Beiping have morphed over time into the currently accepted Beijing. If the capital city of modern Ukraine is transliterated by the people who live there and speak the language of that city as Kyiv - so be it. Unless you refer to call Uzhorod as Ungvar or Mucachevo as Munkacs or New York as New Amsterdam.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: DMD] #415030 02/17/16 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DMD
Peking and Beiping have morphed over time into the currently accepted Beijing. If the capital city of modern Ukraine is transliterated by the people who live there and speak the language of that city as Kyiv - so be it. Unless you refer to call Uzhorod as Ungvar or Mucachevo as Munkacs or New York as New Amsterdam.


Do you refer to the capital of Russia as "Moskva"? Do you say "Rome" or "Roma"?

If it's alright with Alex, I will henceforth refer to the capital of Ukraine as Little Moscow.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: DMD] #415034 02/17/16 07:17 PM
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New York as New Amsterdam.


It will always be New Amsterdam to me..... grin grin grin

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #415040 02/17/16 10:06 PM
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Swan,

"Kiev" is no longer the convention for the capital of Ukraine in English - perhaps you aren't as familiar with the language as you have led on.

As for "Little Moscow," since so much that is Russian culture was stolen and appropriated by "Russia" (and "Russia" as a name too), please do feel free to call Kyiv "Little Moscow."

"Little" in the Greek usage, if you care to know something about it, is "mikra" which means "essential" while "Great" in Greek refers to the non-essential, larger mass that surrounds the essential "heart" if you will.

Thus, it is entirely appropriate to refer to the capital of Ukraine as "Little Moscow" - very good on your part.

So if you want to be offensive, you will have to find another venue. You've just shot yourself badly in the leg.

Alex

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #415045 02/18/16 04:54 AM
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Alex, I concede your point. Using the correct spelling of "Kyiv", my team of historians, archaeologists, and philologists have drafted the following statement which we submit to your learned review:

In the year 1480, Ivan III, the first Tsar of Muscovy, attained dispassion, saw the Uncreated Light, and traveled back in time with a select band of Holy Time Warriors to the year 1325. There he constrained Peter, Metropolitan of KYIV and all Rus', to relocate his see from Vladimir to Moscow. Thus was the see of KYIV usurped by the Tsar.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #415047 02/18/16 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Swan,

"Kiev" is no longer the convention for the capital of Ukraine in English - perhaps you aren't as familiar with the language as you have led on.


At risk of stepping into the minefield, I don't believe this is really settled yet. While Ukraine has adopted "Kyiv" as its standard Latinization, press outlets in the English-speaking word continue to use "Kiev." While the White House started using "Kyiv" in March of 2014, the BBC, New York Times, Reuters, and the AP continue to use "Kiev," presumably because "Kiev" is how most English-speakers know the city and how they would search for news stories. And, in American English anyway, the pronunciation is not appreciably different. "Kyiv" does appear occasionally, but I suspect it is still the less-common spelling by a fair margin. It's not my field of study, but I would not be surprised to learn "Kyiv" has gained ascendancy in academic work.

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: MalpanaGiwargis] #415049 02/18/16 09:20 AM
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OK, Mr. KGB, the game is up. Why don't you take your facts and rational thinking to the PutinMania forum?

Re: MP denies reports about a Kirill-Francis meeting in Latin America [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #415050 02/18/16 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SwanOfEndlessTales
Alex, I concede your point. Using the correct spelling of "Kyiv", my team of historians, archaeologists, and philologists have drafted the following statement which we submit to your learned review:

In the year 1480, Ivan III, the first Tsar of Muscovy, attained dispassion, saw the Uncreated Light, and traveled back in time with a select band of Holy Time Warriors to the year 1325. There he constrained Peter, Metropolitan of KYIV and all Rus', to relocate his see from Vladimir to Moscow. Thus was the see of KYIV usurped by the Tsar.


The correct spelling of ANYTHING is historical - your team of whoever, headed by you, fails to take that into account.

Ukraine is no longer a vassal state of Russia, whether imperial or Soviet or neo-Soviet.

And it will never return to such again. The history books concerning Russia and its bloody, colonial past, using Orthodox Christianity - when it didn't repress and martyr it - have yet to be written so that the world may see it for what it truly is.

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