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Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #415037
02/17/16 04:42 PM
02/17/16 04:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 9
Florida, U.S.A.
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Rhinelander Waldo Offline
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Rhinelander Waldo  Offline
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Well, now Ramzi Musallam’s Facebook Page has changed again (as of Feb. 17, 2016) -

https://www.facebook.com/bishopramzi.musallam

Now instead of calling himself “Rt. Rev. Archbishop Ramzi Musallam” (as he was listed until just the last few days) he is now calling himself “Father Elias Musallam” . (he was supposedly ordained as a ROCOR priest — Fr. Elias — back in July or August of 2015 ... how could it have taken this long for him to change his Facebook name from "Rt. Rev. Archbishop Ramzi Musallam" to "Father Elias Musallam" ? )

Now he lists himself as working for some outfit called the “Palestinian Orthodox Church” instead of the “Catholic Church of the East” . So , what exactly is the Palestinian Orthodox Churc ? Is that supposed to be part of ROCOR ? If it’s supposed to be ROCOR then why not just plainly say ROCOR ? Sorry, but Ramzi still seems to be sneaking around the fringes , playing fast and loose with who he really is and who he is associated with … word is that he was suspended from the priesthood of ROCOR by Metropolitan Hilarion , so has Ramzi now created a new fake jurisdiction called “Palestinian Orthodox Church” ? And one wonders, if he’s Palestinian or Arab Orthodox , then why didn’t he try to go with Antioch to start with ? (or did he try to approach Antioch and they quietly turned him down ? )

I wish the ROCOR hierarchy would actually SAY something about this situation ...

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #415038
02/17/16 05:28 PM
02/17/16 05:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 209
USA
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SwanOfEndlessTales Offline
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SwanOfEndlessTales  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 209
USA
ROCOR is goofy.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #415041
02/17/16 06:10 PM
02/17/16 06:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Orthodox Catholic  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Swan, you are a real charmer, aren't you?

Whatever you do for a living is a waste of your skills. You should be in the diplomatic corps.

Alex

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #415058
02/18/16 06:43 AM
02/18/16 06:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 209
USA
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SwanOfEndlessTales Offline
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SwanOfEndlessTales  Offline
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USA
ROCOR seems to be a haven for dreamers- whether of the Western vagante garage bishop or the Russkiy Mir neo-Tsarist variety. Not long after Met. Jonah transferred to ROCOR from the OCA he released this bizarre essay lauding Putinism as a return of "Holy Russia": https://juicyecumenism.com/2014/04/19/metropolitan-jonah-the-resurrection-of-holy-russia/

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #415062
02/18/16 11:18 AM
02/18/16 11:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Orthodox Catholic  Offline
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Canada
I apologise to you again Swan and withdraw my comments - they were out of place and nasty.

God bless,

Alex

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #415073
02/18/16 10:27 PM
02/18/16 10:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 294
East of the West
M
Mark R Offline
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Mark R  Offline
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East of the West
I know of no ROCOR vagantes other than a strange American who was ordained a bishop by them and left several decades ago.
I know of no Russkiy Mir stuff from them. In fact, Ukrainians worship where I go to church (there have been tryzub pins and vyshyvanki worn and support for Ukraine in the E.U. expressed), as well as Moldovans, Latvians, Australians and Americans.
I am not an insider so I do not know much. I have read distasteful things of other jurisdictional hierarchs, but I would by habit attribute that to sour grapes or lay spleen.
I do not know if this forum exists to pick on churches or hierarchs, but perhaps our time is better spent doing something constructive.
Cheers.

Last edited by theophan; 02/19/16 11:54 AM. Reason: correcting word as requested
Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #415074
02/18/16 10:32 PM
02/18/16 10:32 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 294
East of the West
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Mark R Offline
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Mark R  Offline
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East of the West
Please strike "are" in last sentence and replace with "our". I am trying to type while being constantly interrupted.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #415078
02/19/16 01:44 AM
02/19/16 01:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Massachusetts
I
Irish Melkite Offline OP
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Irish Melkite  Offline OP
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Mark,

It is not that there are "ROCOR vagantes", but ROCOR has continued a bad habit that has been rampant in EC, OC, EO, and OO Churches in the past of welcoming vagantes to its ranks without properly vetting them and has suffered some unpleasant experiences as a consequence. While most everyone else has learned their lesson and become much more careful in that regard, ROCOR has not as yet.

This forum does not exist to 'pick on' Churches or hierarchs, but many of us have observed the consequences in years past of being too ready to take in any and every random 'cleric' who evinced a profound spiritual attachment to the East, only to find that it was a mistake of the first order to have done so. If now-Father Elias Musallam turns out to be genuinely seeking union with a canonical Church, I'll be among the first to applaud - but his track record in this regard is not sterling and ROCOR's sudden silence on the matter it was trumpeting just a week ago is telling. Likewise, Musallam's apparent new entity - the Palestinian Orthodox Church - rightfully raises eyebrows.

I've followed and studied vagante episcopi and the 'churches' they create for close to 4 decades and the signs that this is turning into another adventure of the same ilk are all too familiar.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #415083
02/19/16 05:25 AM
02/19/16 05:25 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 209
USA
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SwanOfEndlessTales Offline
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What's really odd about this situation is that ROCOR made a big announcement 2-3 years back that they were suspending Bishop Jerome from running the Western Rite and overhauling the vicariate, partly due to his lack of circumspection in vetting and preparing new priests. Then they go ahead and suddenly take in a group of (supposedly) 60 parishes.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #415086
02/19/16 07:24 AM
02/19/16 07:24 AM
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Posts: 294
East of the West
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Mark R Offline
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Mark R  Offline
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East of the West
Understood. I really don't follow the Western Rite ROCOR news since it is of little interest.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #415088
02/19/16 11:12 AM
02/19/16 11:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
New York, NY
JBenedict Offline
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JBenedict  Offline
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Not long after Met. Jonah transferred to ROCOR from the OCA he released this bizarre essay lauding Putinism as a return of "Holy Russia":

I'm not sure that's an entirely charitable reading of that essay. It actually seems to be an attempt to strike a middle course. It's not the pro-Putinism of e.g. "Barbara Drezhlo"... now I know that's probably the most extreme case possible... but I think there's some space between the view Metropolitan Jonah sets out there and pro-Putin views farther out.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: JBenedict] #415089
02/19/16 11:51 AM
02/19/16 11:51 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,314
Hollidaysburg, PA
theophan Offline
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theophan  Offline
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JBenedict:

Christ is in our midst!!

Your quote and reply was posted as a reply to "Irish Melkite" which could cause a reader to think that the latter made the comment rather than SwanofEndlessTales who did make this comment in a post several posts prior.

May I suggest that when you comment on quotes you be a bit more careful about the links so that the reader does not attribute the quotes to the wrong person.

Bob
Moderator


Last edited by theophan; 02/19/16 11:55 AM. Reason: clarity
Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #415102
02/20/16 04:10 AM
02/20/16 04:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 9
Florida, U.S.A.
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Rhinelander Waldo Offline
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Rhinelander Waldo  Offline
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Florida, U.S.A.
I think Ramzi Musallam must be reading this forum. Now his Facebook page changes again ! (Feb. 20, 2016) .

https://www.facebook.com/bishopramzi.musallam

No more “Fr. Elias” . He’s now back to Ramzi R. Musallam and listing himself again as Archbishop of the Catholic Church of the East . (the “Palestinian Orthodox Church” didn’t last long ).

Oddly enough, after having been posted on YouTube back on August 23, 2015 , he has finally shared the video of the homily he gave at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist (ROCOR) , which refers to him as Hieroschemamonk Elias.

However, his FB page profile (as of today , at least) lists him this way:


-Archbishop CCE at Saint Ann Cathedral CCE

-Public figure at Catholic Church



-Public figure at Public figure



-Studied Divinity at Notre Dame University



-Went to La Salle College


But even as he belatedly posts the video of the homily by "Hieroschemamonk Elias" given at the ROCOR cathedral in Washington, if you scroll down through the other public posts on his FB page , notice that all reference to ROCOR has been removed from the original posts (though a few references to ROCOR or being Orthodox still remain in some of the comments). For example , his posting from Dec. 25 , with photos of the St. Irene church, says:

"Merry Christmas and blessed New Year from Saint Irene CCE."

but previously it said:

"Merry Christmas and blessed New Year from Saint Irene Parish ROCOR / CCE".

Other posts that previously referenced ROCOR now only mention Catholic Church of the East (CCE).




Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Michael_Thoma] #415106
02/20/16 07:15 PM
02/20/16 07:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
New England
Peter J Offline
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Peter J  Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Why do some Orthodox jurisdictions keep making the mistake of ordaining recent converts - especially hoppers and shoppers - to orders without some time of discernment? Why rush to make them priest or deacon without first giving them a year or three as laymen?

I'm all for proper vetting, but I'm not so sure about the idea of saying You must become a layman, at least temporarily. I don't believe that is necessary -- if it were, then why wouldn't the Ordinariates need to do it as well? (Aside: If the Ordinariates, in fact, do that then someone tell me please. I haven't heard of it.)

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #415111
02/21/16 09:20 AM
02/21/16 09:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 9
Florida, U.S.A.
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Rhinelander Waldo Offline
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Rhinelander Waldo  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 9
Florida, U.S.A.
I have some questions regarding Ramzi Musallam's title of "Hieroschemamonk", here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKmqa3il3Js

(This is apparently the official YouTube channel of St. John The Baptist Cathedral , ROCOR , in Washington, D.C. , so the title of Hieroschemamonk doesn't seem to be something he appropriated for himself , but was given to him at his ordination in ROCOR ... ? )

My questions: In Orthodox tradition isn't a monk supposed to live in a monastery under the rule of an abbot ? Does anyone know what monastery Hieroschemamonk Elias (Musallam) was supposed to have been attached to and who was supposed to have been his abbot ? Since having been ordained as a "Hieroschemamonk" it doesn't seem like he spent any time functioning as a monk in a monastery.

Or is it sometimes the case that some Orthodox monks will function as the equivalent of a "friar" in the Western mendicant orders?




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