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Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: Protopappas76] #415983 08/04/16 04:45 PM
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Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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The lines may have been arbitrary but the differences between Ukrainians and Rusyns are real, as real as the differences between Ukrainians and Russians. Rusyns (and their descendants) should be free to be Rusyns. I fear being under Ukrainian bishops would ultimately lead to the loss of that identity. Apparently Rome agrees.


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Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: UkrCathLDN] #416004 08/09/16 07:30 PM
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"Differences between Ukrainians and Rusuyns are real..." We are talking about North America. In most of the Carpatho Rusyn parishes in the South and in the West Coast one only sees a smattering of parishioners of Rusyn descent.Instead one sees the American melting pot. I didn't know that the evangelization of North America was to be confined to ethnic bounds. At least on the West Coast the thriving Greek-Catholic parishes I see are not based upon Pyroghi or kibbee.

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: Protopappas76] #416013 08/11/16 08:59 PM
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So, what are you trying to say?

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: Protopappas76] #416024 08/15/16 08:19 PM
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But to get back to reality. Why do five parishes need to be an independent entity with its own bishop? Is it something that can be sustained without the generous support of the gentleman whose vision started the cathedral that is not finished?

Seems the answer was decided by naming the bishop as the ordinary of Van Nuys and making him the administrator of his former see. And as far as being part of the Metropolitan Church in the U.S., isn't that already de facto what is happening?

Bob

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: UkrCathLDN] #416027 08/15/16 10:59 PM
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What's the nearest Ruthenian Eparchy to Toronto? Perhaps they can fall under their jurisdiction as a vicariate of the Eparchy.

This could also work with the Ukrainian Eparchy. If this were to happen in Australia, they would, by default, put the Slovaks in the care of the Ukrainian Eparchy; as they do Ruthenians.

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: UkrCathLDN] #416028 08/16/16 01:33 PM
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'What am I saying?" Simply put, the ethnic jurisdictional patchwork quilt is sapping our limited resources to live and speak Christ in our American and Canadian contexts. The apostolic genius of the Eastern Churches is synodal governance, not quasi monarchical. The natural relationship of our eparchial structure with their synods has been seriously disrupted and affected by the another Church's form of governance and "Ostpolitik" that my be well for them but is alien to our own. Dicastrial "divide and conquer" has created strange jurisdictional anomalies in relationship with our own synods. And, because of the "crazy" way in which our eparchies have developed, we see limited resources (the blood, seat and tears of the laity) often squandered in maintaining two or three small struggling parishes belonging to different eparchies based upon a principal of which side of a mountain that immigrants came from. That's absurd! Plus, in some cases those "sui juris" Churches fail to then to have the benefits as well as the "checks and balances" that a functioning synod provides. We miss the point when we argue that this local Church or that local Church should be "under" or "in the care of" this or that other Church. Once again, our ecclesiology is conciliar and synodal, i.e. local Churches in communion with other Churches as well enunciated by the Church Fathers and the Seven Great Councils. Due to the way immigration happened in North America we have developed according to the patterns of others and this has done violence to our own ecclesiology. If we are to prosper, as God would have us prosper, it's important that these primary issues be resolved. We are wasting valuable resources and energy in needless duplication. To that end:
Based upon the two basic Greek-Catholic liturgical families (Constantinopolitan and Slav) strengthen and, in certain cases reestablish, a strong working relationship with our synods,and then have those synods create eparchial structures in Canada and the United States that are based upon the realities of who we are in 2016 rather a patchwork based upon where someone's great grandparents came from. As for our sister Church of Rome, it should be a supportive voice in seeing this happen. Nothing could be more encouraging in restoring communion with the other Orthodox Churches, with whom we are sadly not in communion, than this.


Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: Protopappas76] #416031 08/17/16 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Protopappas76
"Differences between Ukrainians and Rusuyns are real..." We are talking about North America. In most of the Carpatho Rusyn parishes in the South and in the West Coast one only sees a smattering of parishioners of Rusyn descent.Instead one sees the American melting pot. I didn't know that the evangelization of North America was to be confined to ethnic bounds. At least on the West Coast the thriving Greek-Catholic parishes I see are not based upon Pyroghi or kibbee.


I am not talking primarily about Rusyn ethnic heritage but our liturgical and chant traditions along with the greater assimilation you see in the Pittsburgh Metropolia. Our parishes use English for 90% if not all the Liturgy. Ukrainians still have many places that are 50% or more Ukrainian for liturgy as well as being very into being Ukrainian. And that is their right and God bless them but I have no interest in that nor do I think most non-Ukrainians.


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Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: UkrCathLDN] #416038 08/19/16 04:48 PM
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The Ukrainian churches in the UK use 99% Ukrainian and we use Julian calendar.

Last edited by UkrCathLDN; 08/19/16 04:49 PM.
Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #416055 08/21/16 02:28 AM
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Well, then here is the opportunity for the Carpatho-Russian Greek-Catholics to help their fellow Slav Greek-Catholics to pull themselves out of their "ethnic rut." May I respectfully point out that this may be a service that many of the Ukrainians might appreciate. Besides, they might teach the Carpatho-Rusyns a thing or two about their common heritage.
Here is at least one place that we could all emulate the Latins. The Latins do not base dioceses on ethnic identity or regional origins. There are no Italian-American Roman Catholic dioceses, German-American Catholic dioceses., etc. That would be a travesty and affront to both conciliar decree and patristic tradition. Latin Catholic dioceses are rightly based upon a common tradition and common liturgy within a geographically delineated area.

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: UkrCathLDN] #416061 08/22/16 04:48 AM
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Spoken like a cradle Greek Catholic fluent in Arabic!

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: Protopappas76] #416065 08/22/16 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Protopappas76
Well, then here is the opportunity for the Carpatho-Russian Greek-Catholics to help their fellow Slav Greek-Catholics to pull themselves out of their "ethnic rut." May I respectfully point out that this may be a service that many of the Ukrainians might appreciate. Besides, they might teach the Carpatho-Rusyns a thing or two about their common heritage.
Here is at least one place that we could all emulate the Latins. The Latins do not base dioceses on ethnic identity or regional origins. There are no Italian-American Roman Catholic dioceses, German-American Catholic dioceses., etc. That would be a travesty and affront to both conciliar decree and patristic tradition. Latin Catholic dioceses are rightly based upon a common tradition and common liturgy within a geographically delineated area.


Not true, there are French-speaking and English-speaking Archdioceses in Winnipeg in addition to the Ukrainian one, not to mention the Anglican Rite odinariates (and other quasi-sees) that overlap the existing Latin diocese.

I doubt the majority of Ukrainians would appreciate that. I myself believe we should emulate what the Orthodox are seeking in North America one unified jurisdiction, independent of hierarchs in the old country. One Archbishop and 4-6 bishops with geographic borders and a couple auxiliary bishops charged with overseeing the Melkite and Ruthenian liturgical traditions.


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Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #416066 08/23/16 01:03 AM
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May I politely correct you. Both the St. Boniface Archdiocese and the Winnipeg Archdiocese are specifically territorial (check out the Annuario Pontificio), St. Boniface is in an historically French speaking but has English speaking parishes subject to it within their own territory - check it out - I know the archbishop. As for the Anglican Ordinariates, they are just that - personal ordinariates, as are the military ordinariates or the few other existing examples i.e. Mission de France, etc. All of which are limited by canons and without the complete jurisdictional rights of a diocese.

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: UkrCathLDN] #416067 08/23/16 01:20 AM
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Hmmm.

1. I am not a cradle Greek-Catholic

2. Neither am I fluent in Arabic. Maybe fluent in eating in Arabic as my profile in the mirror too strongly attests. My few words of liturgical Arabic or liturgical Greek are purposefully few.

3. Our common language in the United States is English. The national languages in Canada are English and French. Our Churches should be striving to make the Gospel live within our respective nations - it is one of the imperatives of the Gospel itself, to evangelize. When Sts. Cyril and Methodios evangelized they didn't create Greek ethnic enclaves and insist that the Divine Liturgy be served in Greek, they served the Divine Liturgy in the language of the people.




Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: Protopappas76] #416068 08/23/16 09:56 AM
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I'm pretty fluent in Arabic eating too. Especially when it comes to falafels.

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto [Re: UkrCathLDN] #416079 08/24/16 08:53 AM
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It always seems that the converts without the language and ancestry are big on English liturgies.

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