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Does the Catholic Church endorse the Charismatic movement? #416554 12/13/16 01:00 PM
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rakovsky Offline OP
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The Charismatic movement entered the Catholic Church in the late 1960's. Since it differs from what the Catholic Church had been practicing for centuries previously, wouldn't the hierarchs, and the Pope in particular, have recognized that it was foreign to Catholic Tradition? Is it true as Charismatics claim that the Catholic Church endorses the Charismatic movement?

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal website says:
Quote
the Catholic Charismatic Renewal exists in over 238 countries in the world, having touched over 100 million Catholics...

In 1975 Pope Paul VI greeted ten thousand Catholic charismatics from all over the world at the ninth international conference of the Renewal... In 1979 soon after becoming Pope [John Paul II] said, “I am convinced that this movement is a sign of the Spirit’s action . . . a very important component in the total renewal of the Church.”

[A 1984] U.S. Bishops [Statement endorses JP II's words:]
“The priest, for his part, cannot exercise his service on behalf of the renewal unless and until he adopts a welcoming attitude toward it, based on the desire he shares with every Christian by baptism to grow in the gifts of the Holy Spirit” (May 7, 1981).
http://www.nsc-chariscenter.org/about-ccr/


The Tradition in Action website says:
Quote
Mother Angelica promotes some of the Catholic speakers of the charismatic movement like the egregious Babsie Bleasdell and “rap priest” Fr. Stan Fortuna. In fact, Mother Angelica and her sisters profess to follow a charismatic orientation, as does Steubenville University, which presents itself as conservative. University President Fr. Michael Scanlon has hosted Catholic Charismatic Leadership conferences there and openly defends Steubenville’s commitment to Pentecostalism and his own “baptism in the Spirit.”
...
the movement took root in the United States at a conference there in 1977, attended by 50,000 persons from 10 denominations. (No less a personage than Cardinal Leo Joseph Suenens attended and lectured at the watershed event.)

http://www.traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/A_011br_CloseUps_Horvat.htm


The Holy Spirit Interactive Website says:

Quote
[Linked Image]
Leon Joseph Suenens, the Cardinal of Malines-Brussels and one of the four moderators of the Second Vatican Council, was one of the first champions of the Charismatic renewal in the Catholic Church. ...
n the summer of 1975, some 10,000 Catholic charismatics gathered in St. Peter's Basilica. Also present were prominent Protestants who were invited to take part as well, thus giving the movement a moving ecumenical dimension. [A] homily [was given by] Pope Paul VI
...
Cardinal Suenens was asked to oversee the integration of the Catholic Renewal into the heart of the Church. ... From 1974-1986, he also drafted a series of six articles, the "Malines Documents," which detailed the personalities and ideas he wanted fostered in the Charismatic movement, among them being ecumenism, social action, and the strange phenomenon of "slaying in the spirit."
...
Encouraged by the leadership of Pope Paul VI and later by John Paul II, many Catholic bishops of the United States, Canada, Mexico, South America, and Europe wrote pastoral statements supporting and encouraging the Renewal. Vatican II said...: "the Holy Spirit ... distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. 'The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit' (1Cor.12:7). These charismatic gifts, whether they be the most outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation, for they are exceedingly suitable and useful for the needs of the Church."

http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/features/charismaticrenewal/cr_history.asp

It is confusing for me that the Cardinal would want to see more "slaying in the spirit", as the article calls it "strange".

I have been feeling like going to a Catholic Charismatic session, because I see parallels to what was happening in the early Church where a believer like one of Paul's students went to areas where people hadn't heard the gospel and would perform various miracles. But the idea of being at a Charismatic meeting also makes me feel uncomfortable, like I could get hypnotized by it since I am attracted to it but think it is probably hypnotic rather than supernatural.

Someone on Redit asked about feeling uncomfortable with the Charismatic movement, and another person replied by posting official Catholic statements:
Quote

John Paul II, speaking to a group of international leaders of the Renewal on December 11, 1979
I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church.

John Paul II, later

The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential as it were to the Church’s constitution. They contribute, although differently, to the life, renewal and sanctification of God’s People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church’s charismatic dimension that, before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclesial movements and new communities.

Cardinal Ratzinger in a forward to a book by a charismatic Catholic Cardinal

...a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.

... to those responsible for the ecclesiastical ministry - from parish priests to bishops - not to let the Renewal pass them by but to welcome it fully
https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicis...ncomfortable_about_catholic_charismatics


[video:youtube]WpEpsBjWLUE[/video]

Re: Does the Catholic Church endorse the Charismatic movement? [Re: rakovsky] #416556 12/13/16 08:33 PM
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theophan Offline
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Christ is in our midst!!

There are those who believe that Cardinal Suenens (sp?) was a prominent member of the hierarchy that promoted much of the confusion about what the Catholic Church believed and taught after the Vatican Council. There are those who believe that this latter event was the new birthday of the Church and that what went on before should be forgotten.

The Dutch Church went from being one of the most conservative to the most liberal overnight during that period. So I take anything coming from that direction with a tablespoon of salt.

See my pm to you.

I confess that I have been heavily influenced by the Orthodox Church and have had much of my formation in practice formed along lines that you would find familiar. So I admit to being very uncomfortable with novelty in the Faith and in its practice. My confessor agrees with me that the innovator should be the one to justify his innovation and does not ahve anything to do with this activity.

Bob

Last edited by theophan; 12/14/16 05:00 PM. Reason: separate words run together
Re: Does the Catholic Church endorse the Charismatic movement? [Re: theophan] #416559 12/14/16 05:38 PM
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rakovsky Offline OP
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Thanks for your reply, Theophan!

Can I ask how you would interpret the declarations of Vatican II, which the Catholic Church considers ecumenical, about the Charismatic movement?

Quote
Paragraph 12

It is not only through the sacraments and the ministries of the Church that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God and enriches it with virtues, but, "allotting his gifts to everyone according as He wills,(114) He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. By these gifts He makes them fit and ready to undertake the various tasks and offices which contribute toward the renewal and building up of the Church, according to the words of the Apostle: "The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit".(115) These charisms, whether they be the more outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation for they are perfectly suited to and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.
http://www.cin.org/v2church.html

Speaking in tongues, prophecies, and healings would be one of the more "outstanding gifts", and the text says to receive them with thanksgiving.

The EWTN website says that the "Charisms" mentioned in Vatican II include speaking in tongues because that is what Paul was talking about in Corinthians, which Vatican II cited for support.
Quote
The Second Vatican Council affirmed the legitimacy of charisms, both ordinary and extraordinary. A charism is simply "a grace freely given by God to build up the Church," as opposed to the graces given to sanctify the individual. St. Paul gives a list of charisms in 1 Cor. 12. They include ordinary charisms like teaching and administration and extraordinary ones like healing, miracles, and tongues.
https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm


The Vatican II document says:
"Judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church". So the judgment of their genuinity would belong to leaders like the Pope, and the popes since Vatican II have been teaching that the Charismatic movement is genuine. What status would those like us have to make an opposite judgment?

Charismatics also point to Vatican II's declaration on the Lay apostolate:
Quote
For the exercise of this apostolate, the Holy Spirit Who sanctifies the people of God through ministry and the sacraments gives the faithful special gifts also (cf. 1 Cor. 12:7), "allotting them to everyone according as He wills" (1 Cor. 12:11) in order that individuals, administering grace to others just as they have received it, may also be "good stewards of the manifold grace of God" (1 Peter 4:10), to build up the whole body in charity (cf. Eph. 4:16). From the acceptance of these charisms, including those which are more elementary, there arise for each believer the right and duty to use them in the Church and in the world for the good of men and the building up of the Church, in the freedom of the Holy Spirit who "breathes where He wills" (John 3:8). This should be done by the laity in communion with their brothers in Christ, especially with their pastors who must make a judgment about the true nature and proper use of these gifts not to extinguish the Spirit but to test all things and hold for what is good (cf. 1 Thess. 5:12,19,21).
http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2LAITY.HTM


Here is a list of papal quotes endorsing the Charismatic renewal:
http://catholicrenewalservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/PapalQuotes.pdf

One Pentecostal sees Vatican II's statements as changing teachings in favor of Pentecostal understandings of the charisms:

Quote
Many at the time of Vatican II were teaching that the extraordinary gifts were miraculous signs of a person’s holiness. The works of Karl Rahner and Yves Conger were influential in convincing the Council that the gifts are gifts of grace and are not earned (Sullivan 14). Whether a believer is experientially holy or is merely a new believer, the special graces are distributed “among the faithful of every rank” (Lumen Gentium 12.2). This view is consistent with the Classical Pentecostal belief that the gifts are free graces that are not earned or deserved.

[img]https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQSL3bO4Nv5Qv0JVfvCSFrTRfeQtoat9NrtDLAcxfOkeb6cfa4ynQ[/img]

Since the spiritual gifts are given to all members of the Church and are not determined by rank or levels of holiness, even the laity is able to contribute to the general welfare of the body of Christ (4.31). ... Vatican II recognizes that, through the charisms, each contributes to the common task of Church encouragement and Gospel proclamation. All who have been baptized into Christ have a part to play in the participation of the priestly office of Christ (4.31). All the people of God also share in Christ’s office of Prophet as they proclaim the gospel in words, praises and in deeds (2.12). It is incredibly significant that Vatican II set aside the entirety of chapter four in the Lumen Gentium to the role and identity of the laity in the Church. This is significant innovation was incredibly influential in the approval of the laity-driven Catholic Renewal (Thigpen 460).

[Linked Image]

https://notsohostilepentecostal.wor...ewal-pt-2-the-innovations-of-vatican-ii/

The underlined part is confusing for me above. I understand that in Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic liturgy, the priest is traditionally seen as taking a role like that of Christ, as when he says during the Eucharistic service: "Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all". In what sense does Vatican II see laity taking on Christ's role in particular as a priest?

He continues:
Quote
One of the most influential contributions of Vatican II to the Charismatic Renewal is found in the Decree of Ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio[:] “we should not forget that anything wrought by the grace of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of our separated brethren can be a help to our own edification. Whatever is truly Christian is never contrary to what genuinely belongs to the faith; indeed, it can always bring a deeper realization of the mystery of Christ and the Church” (Unitatis Redintegratio 1.4). ... It is doubtful that the Catholic Renewal would have been as readily accepted as it was if it weren’t for the contributions of Vatican II (Calisi 73).
https://notsohostilepentecostal.wor...ewal-pt-2-the-innovations-of-vatican-ii/

This is confusing. When the Charismatics feel inspired and make positive Christian declarations, it appears that the Holy Spirit is working in them. As part of these actions they include emotional singing and outpourings of tongues. Does that mean that this belongs to the faith if it is truly Christian and worked by the Spirit?

Re: Does the Catholic Church endorse the Charismatic movement? [Re: rakovsky] #416560 12/14/16 11:12 PM
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theophan Offline
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Christ is in our midst!!

I'm not sure that the Vatican Council meant for the first three portions you quote to refer specifically to the Charismatic movement. Remember that the Council was not meant to be some liberal exercise--I have that from the mouth of a bishop who attended all the sessions during a conversation about some of the aberations that arose claiming to be coming from said council.

Charisms, here does not refer to the Charismatic movement. It refers to the specific gifts and graces that any individual may have and are not specific to the phenomenona seen in the Charismatic movement. A charism may be to be a teacher or one who can organize activities or any otehr activity of human endeavor. "Tongues" may also refer to people who have a facility for learning languages other than one's native language.

The two theologians mentioned were under scrutiny for their orthodoxy so quoting them has no authority. It's an example of the confusion that came about after the Council where everyone assumed he could be his own authority. The whole endeavor lead to the election of Pope St John Paul II later when things had gone so far afield that two different bishops or two different priests could be found teaching opposite things. He was elected to bring order out of chaos and we have the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a result of his papacy.

Many of the Council's documents have been quoted out of context to justify all manner of things. The Charismatic movement did not really take off until after the Council adjourned so to claim that the fathers meant their documents to specifically refer to said movement seems a bit far fetched to me.

Bob

Re: Does the Catholic Church endorse the Charismatic movement? [Re: rakovsky] #416561 12/15/16 12:06 AM
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Dear Brother Bob,

What is your opinion of western educated Eastern Orthodox clergy citing HE Cardinal Suenens as the voice of VC2, in favor of his position?


I've heard His Grace Metropolitan Kallistos reference His Eminence in a positive light in numerous talks.

I'm with you on this so called modern Charismatic movement. In my opinion, it will be the cause of the next wave of scandal in the Church. Hopefully, it will be buried, rather than it digging the Church deeper.

Re: Does the Catholic Church endorse the Charismatic movement? [Re: theophan] #416562 12/15/16 12:16 AM
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rakovsky Offline OP
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Originally Posted by theophan
The Charismatic movement did not really take off until after the Council adjourned so to claim that the fathers meant their documents to specifically refer to said movement seems a bit far fetched to me.


Good point.

But the Charismatic movement gained a lot of strength in the Catholic Church with the Pittsburgh conferences about 2 years after the 1965 Vatican II declaration about the "charisms", didn't it?

I think it might not be a coincidence. The "Charismatic" movement had already grown at that point into mainstream Protestantism, but just wasn't big yet in the Catholic Church in 1965.

Re: Does the Catholic Church endorse the Charismatic movement? [Re: Michael_Thoma] #416563 12/15/16 12:19 AM
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rakovsky Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Dear Brother Bob,

What is your opinion of western educated Eastern Orthodox clergy citing HE Cardinal Suenens as the voice of VC2, in favor of his position?

I think we need to see the quote by Bp. Kallistos Ware.
If he approved some statement or action by the Cardinal, it doesn't mean that Bp. Ware approves of everything the Cardinal has ever done as a Cardinal.

Re: Does the Catholic Church endorse the Charismatic movement? [Re: Michael_Thoma] #416566 12/15/16 03:07 PM
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theophan Offline
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Quote
[What is your opinion of western educated Eastern Orthodox clergy citing HE Cardinal Suenens as the voice of VC2, in favor of his position?


Opinions are like sweat socks: everyone has two; most stink. Here goes.

Each one of us is given the talents and gifts we have. Each of us is placed in the situation we are in. I have been blessed to have had sound, orthodox clergy as my confessors and spiritual fathers over the last half century. None of them has had a bent toward any of this stuff; in fact they have warned me to stay away. I believe that is the Holy Spirit speaking to me through them.

I don't judge others; where they are or what they may say to the contrary. I have always erred on the side of caution, whether in the Faith or otherwise. Maybe I'm too conservative--been accused of that--but one spiritual father said there is no such thing as being too conservative when it comes to the Faith and its practice.

I have to answer for me; everyone else answers for himself. I can only hope that I am on the right track, given my situation and the spiritual fathers in my history--and that my witness does not lead another astray.

I admit I am not open to charismatic practice or any New Age prayer methods.

Bob

Re: Does the Catholic Church endorse the Charismatic movement? [Re: theophan] #416628 01/05/17 03:54 PM
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jova Offline
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FWIW, the movement in my area is nearly defunct. The 'healing' masses are attended by few, the prayer groups are dwindling and most Catholics I talk to either don't know it exists or are wary of it.


Re: Does the Catholic Church endorse the Charismatic movement? [Re: rakovsky] #416640 01/09/17 01:27 PM
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Hi guys,

Just my two cents' worth, having had some exposure to different manifestations of (broadly speaking) "charismatic" stuff:

My impression is that, like most primarily lay movements throughout the history of the church, the charismatic movement is a pretty big tent with a lot of stuff going on in it. Some of it is extremely edifying, holy, and beautiful, but some of it is suspect and even problematic in light of scripture, tradition, and church law.

I guess you could say the same thing about the "trad movement"--a broad, primarily lay movement, as often babysat by the clergy as led by it.

The Church tends to be cautious in regard to these things--neither condemning nor affirming with broad brushes, but always carefully "distinguishing" as the Dominicans like to say.


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