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Dear Daniel,

And perhaps you should insert "presumptuous Catholic" in your screen name?

I am certainly happy you are not a bishop - I'd be in real trouble then.

Christianity doesn't exist as a theory without a cultural body.

The thing is that Christianity has existed in the European/American (both North and South) cultural embodiment for so long that the two can barely be separated.

And they must be for more effective evangelical witness to the great non-Christian peoples, hundreds of millions of them, that have yet to hear the Gospel within a cultural context that can adequately mediate Christ's Words to them.

This is the process of inculturation.

Remember that there was a time when Sts Cyril and Methodius were thought to be doing wrong in thinking the Divine Liturgy could be celebrated in a language other than Latin or Greek.

I don't know how old you are, but do remember that in these and other discussions, when you come across things you haven't heard of before - that doesn't necessarily mean the things are wrong.

It could also mean that there might be a gap in your own religious studies that may need to be filled out more.

But if, by "eclectic" you mean that I'm the life of the party, unique, one of a kind, exciting and brimming with cutting-edge ideas, as well as cute and sexy - then, in that case, you have my permission to approach the Administrator about adding that word to my already long screen name!

Alex

Dear Incognitus,

Well, I said the Catholic Church approves of the ongoing work of missionaries among various peoples in inculturating the Gospel and the Liturgy.

And we know that to be a fact.

We also know that the Pope himself allowed himself to be marked on the forehead in an Indian ritual that stirred no end of controversy among "traditional" Catholics - ie. Catholics who have so closely identified Christianity with Western European religious culture that they are incapable of now differentiating the two.

Bishops in India do allow for the Mass in the Lotus position as well as the bringing in of other Christianized traditions.

There is just so much of our own Byzantine tradition that we take for granted as "Christian" that is, in fact, "Christianized" and taken from the pagan Greco-Roman world at the time of the preaching of the Gospel.

The Slavic Churches have even more from their own Indo-European, pre-Christian heritage.

The Celtic missionaries were famous for "saining" pagan traditions and adopting them.

St Ninian of Whithorn actually allowed the Divine LIturgy to be celebrated amidst the stone circles and sacred groves of the pagan druids.

The Roman Christians in Britain, especially under St Margaret of Scotland abhorred the Celtic rites because they saw so much of pagan druidism in them and the sun cult especially (the Celtic Cross is but a Christianization of the pagan sun disc).

In Rus', St Stephen of Perm cut down a "sacred birch tree" to show the people the "god" of that tree wouldn't strike him down.

After they converted to Christ, St Stephen built a Church on the spot where they were accustomed to worship their pagan deities.

He used the stump of that birch tree as the Church's altar . . .

Our Slavic culture has been so "wedded" to its pagan past that if we hadn't received Christianity, by way of sobering reminder, we Slavs would continue to celebrate the "Kutya supper" which is now the Nativity Eve celebration and most other celebrations anyway.

I don't find the lotus position to be inspiring. But I don't begrudge those who would find in it and other of there traditions a solid bridge to Christ.

Alex

Dear Qathuliqa Mor Ephrem,

Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to enrich us all with your deep reflections and thoughts on this matter!

India's Christian heritage is one that truly does extend to the times of the Apostles, as we know.

And that heritage has a developed inculturated expression of its own.

There are, as you say, Christians in India whose culture reflects that of the West - and this is a stumbling-block for the vast, non-Christian majority of India.

No one is saying that the ancient Christian Churches of India must somehow undergo a process of "Hinduization."

But inculturation takes on new forms with each succeeding generation of Christians who find new ways of successful mission outreach.

It is because I am deeply aware of the extent to which pre-Christian traditions continue to exist in their Christianized form in my own Particular Church and religious tradition that I am positively encouraged by the work of missionaries in other lands.

It is always difficult for people like me to separate what is Slavic/European culture from the core Gospel message. And yet our Lord asked us to preach to all nations.

The reason, I believe, why Christ isn't universally acknowledged as Lord and Saviour is because He has yet to be "incarnated" universally in all the world's cultures.

Alex

Okay, a new name for you: "condescending Catholic".Obviously, inculturation is a highly contraversial thing, always has been. One can easily go off the deep end in either direction.And nothing you have said is new to me, it's just a little surprising to hear it here. I don't even disagree with you in principle, just in the details.

It is one thing to note that certain RC bishops in India allow some Hinduization on the pretext of inculturation; it is quite another matter to assert that the Catholic Church allows it. Moreover, the Church has been thoroughly "inculturated" in India since the time of Saint Thomas the Apostle; there is nothing "foreign" about the Chaldean tradition in India. Incognitus

Orthodox Catholic

I am going to be a bishop some day, maybe even the Metropolitan of the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh!

In Christ+
daniel

Dear Friends,

Everyone has culture. We learn certain things from our parents or gaurdians, our peer group, our neighborhood, communications media, our religious affiliation or lack of it. Inculturation comes from many sources.

When one is born into a Christian family or converts to the faith we bring our culture with us. Except of course anything contrary to the Gospel (abortion, immorality, etc.)

Culture is a part of being human. Jesus was raised in the culture of 1st century Palestine. His clothing, eating habits, manner of speech, and his Judaism were part of His culture.

The wonderful thing is that Jesus transcends culture. He overlays our culture with grace.
He takes what we are and divinizes human nature.

Before living the life of grace one must be human.

Paul

It's nice to see somebody with aspirations... I think.

Personally, I'm aiming for Pope and Patriarch of the great city of Alexandria. With a title like that, who can refuse? Take that Rome, take that Constantinople, Alexandria is back and better than ever!

Now I'll take my tongue out of my cheek.

Dave

I wonder if your an Alexandrian Christian?

In Christ +
Daniel

Shlomo Dave,
Well for me Antioch is (to quote the great Barry White) "My First, My Last, My Everything" plus we get the whole East too :p !!!

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

What is the difference between "RC Bishops" allowing something, and "the Catholic Church (in India)" allowing it?

Tell that to the Syro-Malabar Catholics, please...

I'm supposed to tell the Syro-Malabar Catholics that they are not foreigners in India? They don't need me to tell them that; they know it already!
What's the difference between certain RC bishops in India tolerating something and the Catholic Church allowing something? The Liturgy is not the property of an individual bishop (will certain bishops in the USA please note that point!) or group of bishops. To use a technical term, the RCs in India are not a Local Church and their bishops do not constitute a Synod. Incognitus

I am trying (and often failing) to be a Christian, plain and simple.

Dave

Dear Incognitus,

I don't know how far you would like to push the notion that if Rome doesn't grant a special indult for something that is related to local religious culture, it isn't valid.

That's not really an argument.

I know our Jesuits here are working on a Native Rite and no Bishop ever told them to stop using a peace pipe, reciting the Eucharistic Canon while holding an eagle feather, entering a sweat-hut for Lent or any number of things they have incorporated into the new liturgy they are developing.

The Pope even celebrated the liturgy according to that Native Rite when he was here in the eighties.

Rome encourages inculturation and even more of it.

No one can really say that they have done the inculturation thing to the extent that nothing more can or should be done.

Inculturation issues involve the Eastern Churches and Latinization as well - some argue that Latinizations have been with us for so long that they are now part of our culture etc. The debate goes on, as you know.

Syriac Orthodox in India and other Churches now call their monasteries "ashrams" and borrow elements from the surrounding Hindu culture.

They have competent scholars and theologians who know the religious systems in their immediate environment and are able to relate Christianity to them.

Just like Aquinas related the Greek pagan philosophers to Christianity in his time and the like.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church is "inculturated" in Ukrainian culture.

Can more be done, both with respect to its Byzantine heritage and its Ukrainian cultural development?

Absolutely!

We don't have the lotus position, but if we did, I wouldn't be against its inclusion in our rites and services.

Alex

Daniel n,

If scolding a bit in a right cause is condescending, then I guess I'm guilty.

You were the one who took your disagreement with me to the level of calling me "eclectic" and saying I'm neither Orthodox nor Catholic etc.

That is poor style on your part, Big Guy, and it shows great immaturity.

When you decide to grow up, I'll be happy to engage you in conversation here.

Alex