The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Vigilante, Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada
5603 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Deacon El), 70 guests, and 471 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,738
Posts411,937
Members5,603
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: desertman] #417116 06/15/17 11:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,457
theophan Online Content
Moderator
Member
Online Content
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,457
Christ is in our midst!!

I recall reading an account of a question someone asked a Russian bishop about the eternal fate of non-Orthodox people. As I recall, his answer was that his questioner should not worry about this, but should let this to the Lord's judgement and to be more concerned about one's own relationship with the Lord and living it out.

I think that's a good way to live our lives. I pray for men who are burdened with the clerical office, because the Lord may judge them more severely because they are his living icons. Ordination does not confer infallibility or perfection. In fact, I believe, it adds a heavier burden.

So let's let the Lord be the judge of this and other situations surrounding our hierarchs and clergy. Let's pray for them and ourselves, working out our salvation with fear and trembling--as Scripture has it.

For me, I regularly meditate on the fearsome idea that I might hear "depart from Me, I don't know you" when I leap out into eternity. And then what!!?? An eternity of wondering where I got off track and spending it in the darkness with the demons howling with laughter.

Bob

Last edited by theophan; 06/15/17 11:25 PM. Reason: clarification
Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: theophan] #417118 06/16/17 01:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 318
desertman Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 318
Theophan,

He is and always will be!

I deleted my most recent comments on this thread for reasons related to the point you’re making. I tend to go back and forth between wanting to keep silent in humility and feeling I should try to expose falsehood when I see it for the sake of truth. Won't those who remain silent when they feel they should speak up also be held accountable by God? It's such a strange situation in the Church right now and sometimes it's hard to know how God wants us to respond.

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: TonyM] #417119 06/16/17 04:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 72
jova Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 72
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: desertman] #417120 06/16/17 07:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,457
theophan Online Content
Moderator
Member
Online Content
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,457
desertman:

Christ is in our midst!!

Yes, it is a problem. But there is a difference between speaking out in witness and making an accusatory judgement. To call someone a "heretic" is to accuse that person of deliberately distorting the truth of the Faith. ISTM that is a tall order and takes quite a bit of discernment. While no one can get inside another's head and heart to make a definite judgement in that regard, it, again, seems to me to take quite a bit of study to get to that level.

This is not to say that His Holiness has not confused issues by his pronouncements and written items, especially in light of his two predecessors who seemed to work hard to dispel confusion about issues.

Thankfully, the Lord is still in charge and His promise to be with us to the end of the age remains intact. Question for me is whether I will have remained faithful to what I have been taught and in how I have lived my life when He calls me to account. I can't blame anyone else at that time or on that score--not my spouse, children, confessor, spiritual father, colleagues, fellow parishioners or anyone else. And I'll be accountable for my witness to those in person and in virtual space. Check out Hosea 6:6 when you begin to react to someone's deviation from what you've been taught and let that temper your response.

Bob

Last edited by theophan; 06/16/17 07:23 PM. Reason: punctuation
Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: theophan] #417121 06/17/17 01:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 318
desertman Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 318
I wasn't the one who started the thread and I haven't outright accused anyone of heresy. I only wanted to counter the idea that everything is wonderful and that even the notion that anything could be amiss is preposterous. I was just trying to make it clear that many Catholics (and non-Catholics for that matter) believe there is much to be concerned about. In the midst of all the strangeness in the Church, we shouldn't have to turn our brains off to be good Catholics.

Believe me, I identify well with the sentiments in your last paragraph. First of all I guarantee I'm a worse sinner than anyone else on this forum and I'm well aware that I'm a far worse sinner than our Church leaders as well. I'm not here trying to sit in judgement of anyone or throw out accusations. I realize that my own judgement may not go well and that fact worries me a great deal. Like everyone else, I'm just trying to make sense of all that is happening in this crazy world and in our Church.

Last edited by desertman; 06/17/17 01:34 AM.
Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: TonyM] #417123 06/17/17 11:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 318
desertman Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 318
I think Bob is right. It's better to try and tune out the constant media noise and focus on prayer and repentance than to follow all the hype about these issues. If any of my comments on this topic have upset or offended anybody, I ask for your forgiveness. Signing off.

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: TonyM] #417124 06/17/17 06:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,457
theophan Online Content
Moderator
Member
Online Content
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,457
Christ is in our midst!!

Sometimes we can all be hyper-sensitive to what is going on, especially when we get our information from the unreliable mainstream media. ISTM we have to be very cautious about filtering the information and stories we get. In the past it was, perhaps, easier to deal with some of the issues with which we are bombarded daily--even hourly--because we were not plugged into the whole world as we are now via the internet and social media.

When we think of the spin that some stories we have heard about Pope Francis, ITSM that we have to filter the agenda of the news outlet(s) reporting. It wasn't long ago, for example, that it seemed he had softened the Church's stance on homosexuality. What he said was taken out of context in that instance.

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: TonyM] #417141 06/23/17 01:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
I'm coming in late to this thread, but FWIW I'm having a hard time believing that this is a real question.

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: TonyM] #417147 06/24/17 10:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Nelson Chase Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
While I think it is silly to think Pope Francis is a heretic, his ignoring of the four Cardinals who have asked him to simply state that the Churches consistent teaching on marriage, divorce, and communion has not been changed (as some Bishops conferences have seemed to indicate it has) is concerning for me and many faithful.

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: Nelson Chase] #417150 06/25/17 01:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 318
desertman Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 318
Originally Posted by Peter J
I'm coming in late to this thread, but FWIW I'm having a hard time believing that this is a real question.


Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
While I think it is silly to think Pope Francis is a heretic, his ignoring of the four Cardinals who have asked him to simply state that the Churches consistent teaching on marriage, divorce, and communion has not been changed (as some Bishops conferences have seemed to indicate it has) is concerning for me and many faithful.


This was exactly my point. It may not be capital "H" heresy, but people are concerned. Even Cardinals. So why is it silly?

On a personal note, I've had devout protestant relatives bring up examples of statements to me that they felt bordered on heresy and even blasphemy. To be honest, I really didn't know how to respond to them. Whether it's homilies that explain away Christ's miracles as "allegorical", claiming that atheists can be saved by doing good works, or glaring omissions such as failing to utter the name Jesus even once in any of the U.S./U.N. speeches. Not to mention the routine demotion of the orthodox and subsequent promotion of the heterodox in positions all throughout the Church, both clerical and lay. Many Christians are scandalized, both Catholic and non-Catholic.

Given the above, why is it so shocking that someone would ask the question?

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: desertman] #417151 06/25/17 03:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Nelson Chase Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Quote
This was exactly my point. It may not be capital "H" heresy, but people are concerned. Even Cardinals.


I guess my position is that Pope Francis knows that the Churches position hasn't changed since it can't change. (Truth does not change) As to why he refuses to clearly respond to the four Cardinals is beyond me. Perhaps he doesn't think he has too. Maybe he doesn't. The Cardinal Prefect of the CDF has clearly spoken but seems to be ignored.

Quote
So why is it silly?


Perhaps silly was not the word I was looking for.

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: TonyM] #417152 06/25/17 04:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 87
P
Protopappas76 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 87
I too, am bothered by some recent papal pronouncements, over-reach and actions.

But...


1. Can a Pope of Rome be a heretic?
Yes - history itself shows us this.

2. Is Pope Francis a heretic?
In accord with the Holy Tradition of the Church and repeated pronouncements of Church Councils,
that's a question that can only be answered by his peers, his fellow bishops.

3. What about can we do?
Pray


.

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: TonyM] #417154 06/26/17 12:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,457
theophan Online Content
Moderator
Member
Online Content
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,457
Christ is in our midst!!

I understand the points being made and the fact that so many utterances, writings, and teachings seem to cause confusion. It seems that the fact that His Holiness is a Jesuit by training should cause him to be very clear on things that he writes or says.

That being said, we had the same sort of confusion coming out of the aftermath of the Vatican Council in the late 1960s. That is one reason that the cardinals chose Pope St John Paul II for his clear thinking and consistency in speaking and writing. We have, from his initiative, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which was conceived and meant to bring confusion on so many points to an end.

From where I sit, that document is a gift that I go to as a Latin Catholic time and again when questions come up. Additionally, I do not subscribe to the "high Papal view" that seems to make every papal utterance the last word on what is the truth and what is Church teaching. Maybe I'm the heretic, but it seems to me that I will be judged by how faithfully I keep what I have been taught from my earliest days to the present--how faithfully I live it, and teach it by my own example to others.

I do pray that the "smoke of Satan" that Pope Paul VI spoke of will not cloud the sight of others--something this Pope sensed in his time. Then I have to leave it in the Lord's Hands.

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: theophan] #417155 06/26/17 02:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Nelson Chase Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
He is and every shall be!

Quote
I understand the points being made and the fact that so many utterances, writings, and teachings seem to cause confusion. It seems that the fact that His Holiness is a Jesuit by training should cause him to be very clear on things that he writes or says.


Given the recent history of the Jesuits (the recent comments by their Superior General and the deceitfulness of a certain SJ celebrity priest), I think Pope Francis falls in line with his order.

Quote
That being said, we had the same sort of confusion coming out of the aftermath of the Vatican Council in the late 1960s. That is one reason that the cardinals chose Pope St John Paul II for his clear thinking and consistency in speaking and writing. We have, from his initiative, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which was conceived and meant to bring confusion on so many points to an end.


I agree...the Catechism is crystal clear on these issues. All Pope Francis has to do is make that point and the controversy is over.


Quote
From where I sit, that document is a gift that I go to as a Latin Catholic time and again when questions come up.


I as a Byzantine Catholic love the Catechism.

Quote
Additionally, I do not subscribe to the "high Papal view" that seems to make every papal utterance the last word on what is the truth and what is Church teaching.


As do I but since the vast majority of average Catholics do and the media loves to take every utterance by the Holy Father as gospel, the Pope needs to actually act papal and but an end to this.


Quote

Maybe I'm the heretic, but it seems to me that I will be judged by how faithfully I keep what I have been taught from my earliest days to the present--how faithfully I live it, and teach it by my own example to others.


If you are a heretic may I join you? :-)

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? [Re: theophan] #417159 06/26/17 03:47 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 72
jova Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 72
Originally Posted by theophan


...That being said, we had the same sort of confusion coming out of the aftermath of the Vatican Council in the late 1960s. That is one reason that the cardinals chose Pope St John Paul II for his clear thinking and consistency in speaking and writing...


"In the past, 15 to 20 days after a papal vacancy, the cardinals gathered in St. Peter's Basilica for a Mass invoking the guidance of the Holy Spirit in electing a new pope."

So the above is no longer true?

"Following a vacancy in the papacy, the cardinals hold a series of meetings at the Vatican called general congregations. They discuss the needs and the challenges facing the Catholic Church globally."

I also see new verbage, "When a pope dies or resigns". This is why my Protestant friends ask me, how I like it having two popes? They know it's an odd situation. (I do, too.)

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3