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#415113 - 02/21/16 05:53 PM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Peter J]  
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Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Why do some Orthodox jurisdictions keep making the mistake of ordaining recent converts - especially hoppers and shoppers - to orders without some time of discernment? Why rush to make them priest or deacon without first giving them a year or three as laymen?

I'm all for proper vetting, but I'm not so sure about the idea of saying You must become a layman, at least temporarily. I don't believe that is necessary -- if it were, then why wouldn't the Ordinariates need to do it as well? (Aside: If the Ordinariates, in fact, do that then someone tell me please. I haven't heard of it.)

They do undergo formation. But I think it is unfair to compare Anglican/Episcopals with vagantes.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
#415118 - 02/22/16 04:35 AM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Peter J]  
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Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Why do some Orthodox jurisdictions keep making the mistake of ordaining recent converts - especially hoppers and shoppers - to orders without some time of discernment? Why rush to make them priest or deacon without first giving them a year or three as laymen?

I'm all for proper vetting, but I'm not so sure about the idea of saying You must become a layman, at least temporarily. I don't believe that is necessary -- if it were, then why wouldn't the Ordinariates need to do it as well? (Aside: If the Ordinariates, in fact, do that then someone tell me please. I haven't heard of it.)
As far as I'm aware, all ordinariates are pastored by ordained priests, while the former Anglican clergyman is in formation as a layman for at least 1 year, usually more. If they are received as clergy it's as deacon.

#415129 - 02/22/16 07:50 PM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Michael_Thoma]  
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
If they are received as clergy it's as deacon.

I think we're getting a trifle far from the topic, but Anglicans aren't received as clergy, since their orders are not recognized by TCC.

#415132 - 02/23/16 06:11 AM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Peter J]  
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The late Msgr. Graham Leonard, former Anglican bishop of London was received as a deacon and ordained to the priesthood sub conditione. I'm not aware of any similar cases.

#415403 - 03/24/16 07:30 PM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: JBenedict]  
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Originally Posted by JBenedict
The late Msgr. Graham Leonard, former Anglican bishop of London was received as a deacon and ordained to the priesthood sub conditione. I'm not aware of any similar cases.


How does that even make sense? Diaconal ordination by a known Dutch Touch bishop, and presbyteral ordination by a Anglican clergyman of uncertain validity?

hawk

#415406 - 03/26/16 09:46 PM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite]  
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Originally Posted by dochawk
Originally Posted by JBenedict
The late Msgr. Graham Leonard, former Anglican bishop of London was received as a deacon and ordained to the priesthood sub conditione. I'm not aware of any similar cases.


How does that even make sense? Diaconal ordination by a known Dutch Touch bishop, and presbyteral ordination by a Anglican clergyman of uncertain validity?


hawk,

I'm not aware of the details of either Msgr Leonard's diaconal or presbyteral ordination.

However, the decision to ordain him a priest sub conditione was based on the fact that one of those who ordained him to the episcopate was a bishop of the Old Catholic Church of the Utrecht Confession - and ordination to the episcopate was historically held to confer the fullness of presbyteral orders on one not previously ordained to that order.

When his episcopal ordination was conferred in 1964, many (probably most) bishops of the OCC/UC were still deemed by Rome to have apostolic succession and valid, though illicit, orders. (This was long before Utrecht saw fit to ordain women as presbyters and bishops.)

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
#415409 - 03/27/16 01:07 PM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite]  
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That makes sense, and is what I'd expect under the circumstances.

Thank you

hawk

#417194 - 07/06/17 11:27 PM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite]  
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Guess who is back in the news? Our old friend the former, and now again, Bishop (Metropolitan) Ramzi (Melchisedek) Mussalam. This time he is poaching a canonical Orthodox parish from the OCA.

Quote
Holy Resurrection Church has decided to join the jurisdiction of the schismatic “Palestinian Orthodox Church of America,” led, as Abp. Mark explains, by the schismatic “archbishop” Ramzi Mussalam who has a history of belonging to schismatic groups, and was defrocked as a priest by the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia not long after being received into the Church. Mussalam now styles himself as “Archbishop Melchisedek.” Accordingly, the Eastern PA Diocese has removed the antimens, the reserve Sacrament, the Holy Chrism, and the Holy Unction from the parish.


Source: ByzTx

Here from another source (with picture of the "bishop") [url=http://orthochristian.com/104948.html]orthochristian.com

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 07/06/17 11:47 PM.
#417219 - 07/15/17 04:40 PM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite]  
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Christ is in our midst!!

In advance, please forgive my ignorance.

Where does this gentleman get his funds to keep doing scam after scam? A set of episcopal vestments doesn't come cheap and a mitre is even pricier. I did a google on Istok.net and found these items way out of my price category. I know some TV evangelists have a great following and they have thousands of dollars flowing in every day, but someone claiming to be in the Eastern tradition appeals to a much smaller audience.

Then there's the picture of the parish he took over. Are the few people pictured all there there are? How are such a small number supporting anyone at all as their clergyman?

Maybe I it is because I am a small businessman and have worked in small business for the past half century, but somehow the numbers don't seem to add up. Is there a side business selling something else-legal or illegal? (I am not accusing; just wondering.)

The Philadelphia situation is even more puzzling to me.

Bob

Last edited by theophan; 07/15/17 04:43 PM. Reason: additional comment
#417220 - 07/15/17 05:16 PM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite]  
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Those people at the church he took over did not want to let the OCA bishop see their books. There may be a bigger pile of money there than one might imagine. I wonder what will happen when his holiness wants to see the books. It seems likely that the smell of money was a major attractant here.

#417221 - 07/15/17 06:30 PM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite]  
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Christ is in our midst!!

Jim:

There are more ways than stepping outside canonical Orthodoxy to keep one's total financial picture secret. I've known people who "double book" their business finances. Just gets to be a problem when one has to account to Uncle Sam or the state. But churches and other non-profits are ripe for this. So what would be the problem? The OCA bishop is not in the place every week, but you can bet this new gentleman will be there like white on rice.

But that doesn't answer the question of where this gentleman comes from and his source of income to keep up the illusion of legitimacy.

Bob

Last edited by theophan; 07/15/17 06:32 PM. Reason: additional comment
#417223 - 07/16/17 10:13 AM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Nelson Chase]  
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Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Guess who is back in the news? Our old friend the former, and now again, Bishop (Metropolitan) Ramzi (Melchisedek) Mussalam. This time he is poaching a canonical Orthodox parish from the OCA.

Quote
Holy Resurrection Church has decided to join the jurisdiction of the schismatic “Palestinian Orthodox Church of America,” led, as Abp. Mark explains, by the schismatic “archbishop” Ramzi Mussalam who has a history of belonging to schismatic groups, and was defrocked as a priest by the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia not long after being received into the Church. Mussalam now styles himself as “Archbishop Melchisedek.” Accordingly, the Eastern PA Diocese has removed the antimens, the reserve Sacrament, the Holy Chrism, and the Holy Unction from the parish.


Source: ByzTx

Here from another source (with picture of the "bishop") [url=http://orthochristian.com/104948.html]orthochristian.com


Comments to the article above contain this:

"With St. Nicholas church, which was incorporated in 1917, the issue was real estate. Abp. Michael have demanded the deed of the property. His intent was to close down the church because of dwindling numbers of parishioners and sell it to developers. Council had no choice but to abandon the OCA."

So what instigated this whole thing was money. My EC parish originated on property by an airport, at one time unwanted real estate. But as soon as plans to move the airport materialized the property values skyrocked. It's been an uphill battle of renovations and expansions to keep relevant. It looms over us; we have not grown yet stay stable, the threat of losing our place of worship.

#417229 - 07/17/17 04:03 PM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: jova]  
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Originally Posted by jova


Comments to the article above contain this:

"With St. Nicholas church, which was incorporated in 1917, the issue was real estate. Abp. Michael have demanded the deed of the property. His intent was to close down the church because of dwindling numbers of parishioners and sell it to developers. Council had no choice but to abandon the OCA."

So what instigated this whole thing was money. My EC parish originated on property by an airport, at one time unwanted real estate. But as soon as plans to move the airport materialized the property values skyrocked. It's been an uphill battle of renovations and expansions to keep relevant. It looms over us; we have not grown yet stay stable, the threat of losing our place of worship.



It's an interesting phenomenon in the OCA that the parish owns its own property. If the parish had the opportunity to sell to the developers and they took it, it doesn't seem as if the bishop would have anything to say about the sale or where the funds went, especially if the property was incorporated and it belonged to the members--assuming that is what the articles of incorporation say. On the other hand, what right would the bishop have to keep any funds derived from the sale of the property? It would seem that the funds would have to be divided among the members of the corporation on the day of dissolution.

We have had reports on this board about property being sold in EC parishes when numbers dwindled and some were really disturbing. One the comes to mind was a parish where the members were escorted out after the last DL by armed security--something really not in keeping with Christian behavior.

It is sad, however, when our orthopraxy comes down to money--no matter the circumstances.

I had another thought. Are we faith communities or are we expendable individuals simply housed in franchises that can be closed by episcopal fiat and at will? These are tough questions. I understand that sometimes a faith community can become so small it is no longer sustainable. But what about the people who remain? Are they to be left because they, too, are no longer sustainable? The Latin dioceses in Western PA have been closing parishes and consolidating because of priest shortages. But is that sufficient reason to close a community building that may be more than just a worship space? Many times a church building in a small community is a center for dinners and other get-togethers that are as important as worship. Is that not taken into account?

Last edited by theophan; 07/17/17 04:09 PM. Reason: another thought and questions
#417230 - 07/18/17 09:10 AM Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite]  
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It is a sad reality that the bottom line does come down to money. When the physical facilities can no longer be maintained by the people still attending mass at a church then there is no choice no matter how loyal the remnant of parishioners is. Changing demographics is an unrelenting force for many churches. While we often claim as the reason is the priest shortage the fact of the matter is that even if a priest were available there is no way many parishes could support him and pay the utility bills let alone maintain the property.

Here is a case in point that I am familiar with. There is a parish in San Antonio that is being closed in August. It is located in an area where there is a parish church on each corner of a square mile. Four churches, each with a hall and a school building within a mile of each other. The one being closed has less than 100 people still attending the single mass offered there by a supply priest. The church, hall and school are all falling apart. The hall needs $200,000 in repairs just to make it safe to use. Leaking windows in the church have caused the floor of the choir loft to rot so it is unsafe to use. The list is endless. Yet the small number of people still there are bitter about the closing.

This is a Roman parish and the bishops of the diocese have long been negligent in dealing with the problem of demographic change. The time has passed when consolidation could have been done reluctantly but positively. Apparently, we have entered into a Darwinian period of slow attrition as physical facilities deteriorate until there is no alternative but closing churches as they become uninhabitable. Unfortunately, those that survive are not the spiritually fittest but the physically fittest.

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