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Paschal Full Moon #418094
04/02/18 03:10 PM
04/02/18 03:10 PM
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Scottsdale, AZ
Deacon John Montalvo Offline OP
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For those who observe the Julian Calendar:

As I understand the ecclesiastical vernal equinox is observed on March 21 on both the Gregorian and the Julian Calendars no matter when it actually occurs astronomically. For those on the Julian Calendar March 21 in tomorrow (Tuesday, April 3 according to the Gregorian Calendar). That being said, when is the Paschal full moon observed? (That is, the full moon which occurs on or after the observed date of the vernal equinox.)

Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: Deacon John Montalvo] #418096
04/05/18 08:42 AM
04/05/18 08:42 AM
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ajk Offline
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Though I do not observe the Julian Calendar, the Julian Paschal full moon was yesterday, April 4 on the Gregorian Calendar, March 22 on the Julian Calendar.

See Golden number (time) and Paschalion: Golden Number=Year of Metonic cycle=5.

The Gregorian Paschal full moon for 2018 was 31 March; see Tabular methods Gregorian calendar in Computus

The Vernal full moon by astronomical reckoning (see table at the end of the document) for 2018 was 31 March.

Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: ajk] #418112
04/08/18 05:21 PM
04/08/18 05:21 PM
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Scottsdale, AZ
Deacon John Montalvo Offline OP
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AJK,

Thank you for the reply. I knew the ecclesiastical observance of the Paschal full moon had to be on Apri 3 or after and before April 8 (according to the GC) to celebrate Pascha on April 8. I just didn’t know how far the ecclesiastical observance was off from the astronomical reality.

Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: Deacon John Montalvo] #418120
04/13/18 02:49 PM
04/13/18 02:49 PM
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ajk Offline
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You are welcome, Fr. Deacon John.

We have recently observed the worthy celebration of the feast of feasts on two successive Sundays. Such a dual observance, though not a scandal in itself, is not what the Church has desired. Each celebration, referenced to its Paschalion, was consistent with the accepted and well-known ecclesiastical rules as stated, for example, by the US Naval Observatory:
Quote
The ecclesiastical rules are:
  • The vernal equinox occurs on March 21,
  • the ecclesiastical full moon is the 14th day of a tabular lunation (new moon), and
  • Easter falls on the first Sunday following the first ecclesiastical full moon that occurs on or after the day of the vernal equinox.
The Date of Easter

These rules that are accepted as having emanated, in some way, from the 1st Ecumenical Council, Nicaea AD 325, comprise a solar-cycle based lunar-cycle-dependent tabulated model that does not demand "exact" astronomical precision but does require sufficient accuracy to reliably give a particular sequence of events, viz., spring & full moon then next Sunday is Pascha.

For the two calendar based methods, each applying the same rules but giving two Sundays one week apart, only one can possibly be exhibiting that desired sequence. The moon is the key; it's only required to look at the night sky to reach a conclusion, a see-it-for-yourself test. Too late for that now but NASA's Scientific Visualization Studio Dial-A-Moon allows a look at the past events. So, at Jerusalem around 5 PM, for example, expecting to see the Paschal full moon, as predicted by the calendars:

Gregorian full moon Month 3 Day 31 UT hour 14 for Pascha April 1 (on the civil calendar)

or

Julian full moon Month 4 Day 4 UT hour 14 for Pascha April 8 (on the civil calendar)

Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: Deacon John Montalvo] #418126
04/17/18 11:43 AM
04/17/18 11:43 AM
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Brooklyn, NY USA
Economos Roman V. Russo Offline
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While you're at it (again!) you may wish to listen to the judgement of the Prophet Isaiah: Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. (Is 1:14)

Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: Economos Roman V. Russo] #418127
04/17/18 12:13 PM
04/17/18 12:13 PM
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ajk Offline
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Originally Posted by Economos Roman V. Russo
While you're at it (again!) you may wish to listen to the judgement of the Prophet Isaiah: Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. (Is 1:14)

Who is the "you" that is "at it (again!)"?

Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: Deacon John Montalvo] #418136
04/18/18 01:19 AM
04/18/18 01:19 AM
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Protopappas76 Offline
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Another curve, the conciliar prohibition against celebrating Pascha "with the Jews."

The West traditonally interprets Passover as being the day itself. While the East understands as Passover as being the full eight days. Voila! Aonther complicator among tne many, alas!

Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: Protopappas76] #418137
04/18/18 01:47 AM
04/18/18 01:47 AM
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ajk Offline
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Originally Posted by Protopappas76
Another curve, the conciliar prohibition against celebrating Pascha "with the Jews."
This is a fiction. The prohibition is not to consider any Jewsish reckoning.

Originally Posted by Protopappas76
The West traditonally interprets Passover as being the day itself. While the East understands as Passover as being the full eight days. Voila! Aonther complicator among tne many, alas!
How then was Julian Pascha 8 April when Jewish Passover was 3 April in 2007? And you said you taught this stuff? Please read No, Pascha does not have to be after Passover (and other Orthodox urban legends).

Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: ajk] #418139
04/18/18 03:41 AM
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Protopappas76 Offline
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You might wat to read the
Originally Posted by ajk
[quote=Protopappas76]Another curve, the conciliar prohibition against celebrating Pascha "with the Jews."
This is a fiction. The prohibition is not to consider any Jewish reckoning.

Yes, I taught "this stuff" and I have the necessary academic credentials."Fiction", "Orthodox urban legends"? How about the Council of Antioch. You might, as well, want to read the Pedalion. Or, then again, maybe St. John Chrysostom.

NB I merely stated that this was a further complicator since many interpret these statements in particular ways and it is absolutely necessary that all be a part of the process of a reconciled date for Pascha without getting on our various "high horses."

Last edited by Protopappas76; 04/18/18 03:42 AM.
Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: Protopappas76] #418142
04/18/18 11:10 AM
04/18/18 11:10 AM
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ajk Offline
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Originally Posted by Protopappas76
You might wat to read the
Originally Posted by ajk
[quote=Protopappas76]Another curve, the conciliar prohibition against celebrating Pascha "with the Jews."
This is a fiction. The prohibition is not to consider any Jewish reckoning.

Yes, I taught "this stuff" and I have the necessary academic credentials."Fiction", "Orthodox urban legends"? How about the Council of Antioch ... getting on our various "high horses."
Credentials aren't enough. It's Orthodox clergy who are exposing the "Orthodox urban legends" in that article.

The Council of Antioch:
Quote
But if any of the persons occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Easter along with the Jews, the holy Council has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church,...
The Canons of the Eastern Orthodox Church

But according to your explanation, the Orthodox celebrated with the Jews.

Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Protopappas76
The West traditonally interprets Passover as being the day itself. While the East understands as Passover as being the full eight days. Voila! Aonther complicator among tne many, alas!
How then was Julian Pascha 8 April when Jewish Passover was 3 April in 2007?
So you OC folks are celebrating with the Jews and by your interpretation incur the Council's censure. So, as I dismount, "How about the Council of Antioch"?

Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: ajk] #418145
04/18/18 04:21 PM
04/18/18 04:21 PM
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SwanOfEndlessTales Offline
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The rules for calculating Pascha are: 1. It's after the vernal equinox; 2. it's after (Julian) March 21st, fixed as the date of the vernal equinox; 3. It's on Sunday.

If, as Protopappas asserts, there is a rule 4. That it should be after the Jewish Passover, then it should be possible to produce examples of Paschas which were dated according to rules 1-3 but then further adjusted to meet this fourth rule.

Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: Deacon John Montalvo] #418146
04/18/18 05:10 PM
04/18/18 05:10 PM
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Protopappas76 Offline
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I am not asserting anything! I merely stated that there are other cross currents of thought amd interpretation that further complicate the whole question, a question which has become a "theological gorgon's knot."

I am not Old Calendar. Although I am a Melkite, I serve a chaplain to a community of Romanian Greek-Catholic nuns who follow the revised Julian calendar by order of their bishop. I served as well as a military chaplain stationed in Greece where even Roman Catholics follow the Orthodox paschalion! (Oddly, the one exception being the one Maronite parish!)

I am not, at all arguing for or against anything other than a resolution of the problem of multiple conflicting calendars.
(Gregorian, Julian, Revised Julian - Old Calendar, New Calendar) Aaaaaaaghhhhhh.

I find that the very tenor of this thread to verge upon the absurd and at times on a level which is even less than charitable.

I neither propose the notion that I am a great theologian or an erudite poobah sitting on a mountaintop uttering gems of wisdom. I merely am lending my poor voice in supporting the resolution of a problem that divides the Christian community and causes scandal and disdain. To quote HH Pope Tawadros: "It is an urgent task to resolve a common date for Pascha." This urgency was further stressed by His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch in his paschal greetings to HH Pope Francis of Rome.

Last edited by Protopappas76; 04/18/18 05:13 PM.
Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: Protopappas76] #418148
Yesterday at 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Protopappas76
I am not asserting anything! I merely stated that there are other cross currents of thought amd interpretation that further complicate the whole question, a question which has become a "theological gorgon's knot."
So let's untie it. What is the specific issue that hasn't been resolved? A lot has been covered in a number of threads on this forum alone.

Originally Posted by Protopappas76
I am not, at all arguing for or against anything other than a resolution of the problem of multiple conflicting calendars.
(Gregorian, Julian, Revised Julian - Old Calendar, New Calendar) Aaaaaaaghhhhhh.
If I've missed something, let me know, but I'd say you have only advanced pro Old Calendar arguments. That's ok but why weren't they resolved in the discussions?

Originally Posted by Protopappas76
I find that the very tenor of this thread to verge upon the absurd and at times on a level which is even less than charitable.
Like what? I don't mind the awful truth. I do mind those who swoop in just to throw their stone, cover their ears and run away.

Originally Posted by Protopappas76
I neither propose the notion that I am a great theologian or an erudite poobah sitting on a mountaintop uttering gems of wisdom. I merely am lending my poor voice in supporting the resolution of a problem that divides the Christian community and causes scandal and disdain. To quote HH Pope Tawadros: "It is an urgent task to resolve a common date for Pascha." This urgency was further stressed by His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch in his paschal greetings to HH Pope Francis of Rome.
I agree with Pope Tawadros. The last I heard on the subject from Pope Francis was utter nonsense (I presume he is ill informed). The Ecumenical Patriarch probably fears schism within at the mere mention of the word calendar. (Can you provide a link to his paschal greeting to Pope Francis?)

Re: Paschal Full Moon [Re: Deacon John Montalvo] #418149
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Look, it doesn't have to be an argument. If someone can produce an example of a Pascha which was calculated according to this alleged not-on-the-Passover rule, resulting in a different date than simply the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox, that would settle the question.


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