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Orthodox divorce #418202
04/27/18 02:52 PM
04/27/18 02:52 PM
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ajk Offline OP
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Quote
... even though the experience of the Eastern Orthodox churches, which have managed both to survive and to stave off theological liberalism while also permitting divorces and (nonsacramental) second marriages,..
The Catholic Church can be changed

I've added emphasis for the word in question. Is this a correct characterization: a second marriage, at least after a (Orthodox) divorce, is nonsacramental?

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: ajk] #418243
05/12/18 07:15 PM
05/12/18 07:15 PM
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dochawk Offline
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Historically, the second marriage, whether after divorce or widowing, is considered nonsacramental, but with the hope that it will in time become sacramental.

Some of the joyful readings and prayers are replaced with penitential.

Modernly, some churches are using the unmodified crowning, though--with some apparently even denying that it is a change.

hawk

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: dochawk] #418244
05/13/18 08:31 AM
05/13/18 08:31 AM
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ajk Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dochawk
Historically, the second marriage, whether after divorce or widowing, is considered nonsacramental,
Is there anything then that remains of the prior sacramental marriage? How is the nonsacramental marriage different, other than being sanctioned by the church, from just living together or a common law marriage?

Originally Posted by dochawk
but with the hope that it will in time become sacramental...
How does this happen?

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: ajk] #418246
05/13/18 08:11 PM
05/13/18 08:11 PM
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dochawk Offline
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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by dochawk
Historically, the second marriage, whether after divorce or widowing, is considered nonsacramental,
Is there anything then that remains of the prior sacramental marriage? How is the nonsacramental marriage different, other than being sanctioned by the church, from just living together or a common law marriage?


As I understand it, the notion is that marriage is to be permanent, but that sometimes it quite clearly dies/fails/somethings. Economia is used to permit another marriage in this tragic ; the first appears (to me) to be gone in this case.

The difference from shacking up would be that the situation is not illicit, I suppose.

Originally Posted by dochawk
but with the hope that it will in time become sacramental...
How does this happen?
[/quote]

The prayerfulness of the couple and efforts to be holy and walk with God, I presume.

hawk

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: ajk] #418247
05/14/18 02:23 PM
05/14/18 02:23 PM
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Fr. Al Offline
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I am unaware that in Orthodoxy the term "non-sacramental" would ever be used to describe a mystery performed by the church. It is agreed that one marriage is the ideal; hence the widowed priest or deacon may not contract a second marriage and remain in the clergy. Not only am I a widower, but my son, a tonsured Reader age 41, just lost his wife in November after having been married only six months. The Archbishop said that should he remarry, he could remain a Reader without the possibility of advancing to ordination. On the other hand, if he reaches age 45, and at that point is willing to remain celibate, he could then be ordained a deacon.
I have a question on another marriage related subject however. Does Rome allow a widow to marry her late husband's brother? It was required in the Old Testament and Orthodox Judaism still practices this. The Orthodox Church forbids such a marriage. I couldn't even marry my late wife's first cousin(assuming I wasn't a priest and wanted to do such a thing.) Also, in the Orthodox Church, two brothers may not marry two sisters. It is evident that Rome has no such prohibitions' because in the Byzantine Catholic Church near where I grew up, three brothers married three sisters in the early years of the last century!

Last edited by Fr. Al; 05/14/18 02:24 PM. Reason: punctuation
Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418258
05/19/18 11:55 PM
05/19/18 11:55 PM
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Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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St John Paul abrogated the canons of affinity by marriage in the Latin Code. They remain in the Eastern Code but I imagine a dispensation may be requested.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418259
05/20/18 09:26 AM
05/20/18 09:26 AM
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Deacon John Montalvo Offline
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Fr Al,

With respect to your statement about widowed clergy, I seem to recall the case of Fr Joseph Allen of the Antiochian Archdiocese, who was reinstated to the presbyterate by +Metropolitan PHILLIP after Fr Joseph married a woman he had counseled to divorce her husband. Is this an anomaly among the Orthodox Churches or is this an exercise of oikonomia?

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418266
05/23/18 09:03 AM
05/23/18 09:03 AM
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Hollidaysburg, PA
theophan Offline
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Father Al:

Father bless!!

Please offer your son my sincere condolences on the loss of his wife after so short a time. I cannot imagine his heartbreak and pain. Prayers for the Lord to step in and help him carry this corss.

Bob

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: ajk] #418268
05/23/18 10:53 AM
05/23/18 10:53 AM
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Fr. Al Offline
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Fr. Deacon:

As I see it, Metropolitan Philip clearly violated the canons in the case you cited .Oikonomia would be letting someone commune without fasting the prescribed time because of the need to take medicine. Or(in the case of my flock), celebrating the entire Paschal cycle at 8:00 AM Sunday morning, because the large number of elderly people makes the traditional midnight celebration ill-advised.
Regarding the changes the late Pope made in Canon Law, am I to understand that prior to this two brothers couldn't marry two sisters? Then the three brothers marrying the three sisters in the Byzantine Catholic Church would have required a dispensation? This happened so long ago that it may have been done at the time of Bishop Sotyr Ortinsky.
Also, may a Catholic man marry his brother's widow? I saw a movie some years back where an Orthodox Jew died. At first, the brother(not very observant) didn't want anything to do with it. He changed his mind when he was told that in a ceremony he would be required to renounce everything pertaining to his late brother.

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: ajk] #418269
05/23/18 10:56 AM
05/23/18 10:56 AM
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Fr. Al Offline
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The Lord Bless!

Thank you, Bob, for your prayers and condolences! I'm sure for my son it is a heavy cross. It was hard enough to lose my wife of 30 years. Since both of Colleen's parents are still alive, it's a cross they must bear as well.

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418271
05/23/18 09:14 PM
05/23/18 09:14 PM
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I certainly cannot speak to the canons but I can tell you that my ancestors who were all German Roman Catholics (those people have a reputation for strictly following the rules) for the last 150+ years regularly had brothers from one family marry sisters from another as well as brother and sister from one family marrying brother and sister from another. I know of at least one case where two brothers were married to two sisters. One of the brothers and one of the sisters died and the surviving brother and sister then married each other.

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418274
05/24/18 10:41 AM
05/24/18 10:41 AM
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Michael_Thoma Offline
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Fr. Al,

I believe Rome allows it -- some Eastern sui iuris Church canons do not allow it, however, are almost always 'dispensed' or 'economia given' in nearly every request.

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418280
Yesterday at 09:53 PM
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dochawk Offline
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Originally Posted by Fr. Al
Does Rome allow a widow to marry her late husband's brother? It was required in the Old Testament and Orthodox Judaism still practices this. The Orthodox Church forbids such a marriage.


This prohibition is the origin of the church of England smile

Henry VIII had a papal dispensation to marry his brother's widow, obtained by claim of non-c0onsumation of his brother's marriage. He later claimed that his brother's marriage *had* been consummated, and that even the pope couldn't grant such a dispensation.

I don't know anything about the other limits you mention.

And my heart and prayers for your son's loss and his wife's soul.

hawk


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