The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Vigilante, Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada
5603 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Deacon El), 70 guests, and 471 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,738
Posts411,937
Members5,603
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Orthodox divorce #418202 04/27/18 06:52 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
ajk Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
Quote
... even though the experience of the Eastern Orthodox churches, which have managed both to survive and to stave off theological liberalism while also permitting divorces and (nonsacramental) second marriages,..
The Catholic Church can be changed

I've added emphasis for the word in question. Is this a correct characterization: a second marriage, at least after a (Orthodox) divorce, is nonsacramental?

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: ajk] #418243 05/12/18 11:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,006
dochawk Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,006
Historically, the second marriage, whether after divorce or widowing, is considered nonsacramental, but with the hope that it will in time become sacramental.

Some of the joyful readings and prayers are replaced with penitential.

Modernly, some churches are using the unmodified crowning, though--with some apparently even denying that it is a change.

hawk

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: dochawk] #418244 05/13/18 12:31 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
ajk Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
Originally Posted by dochawk
Historically, the second marriage, whether after divorce or widowing, is considered nonsacramental,
Is there anything then that remains of the prior sacramental marriage? How is the nonsacramental marriage different, other than being sanctioned by the church, from just living together or a common law marriage?

Originally Posted by dochawk
but with the hope that it will in time become sacramental...
How does this happen?

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: ajk] #418246 05/14/18 12:11 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,006
dochawk Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,006
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by dochawk
Historically, the second marriage, whether after divorce or widowing, is considered nonsacramental,
Is there anything then that remains of the prior sacramental marriage? How is the nonsacramental marriage different, other than being sanctioned by the church, from just living together or a common law marriage?


As I understand it, the notion is that marriage is to be permanent, but that sometimes it quite clearly dies/fails/somethings. Economia is used to permit another marriage in this tragic ; the first appears (to me) to be gone in this case.

The difference from shacking up would be that the situation is not illicit, I suppose.

Originally Posted by dochawk
but with the hope that it will in time become sacramental...
How does this happen?
[/quote]

The prayerfulness of the couple and efforts to be holy and walk with God, I presume.

hawk

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: ajk] #418247 05/14/18 06:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 495
F
Fr. Al Offline
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 495
I am unaware that in Orthodoxy the term "non-sacramental" would ever be used to describe a mystery performed by the church. It is agreed that one marriage is the ideal; hence the widowed priest or deacon may not contract a second marriage and remain in the clergy. Not only am I a widower, but my son, a tonsured Reader age 41, just lost his wife in November after having been married only six months. The Archbishop said that should he remarry, he could remain a Reader without the possibility of advancing to ordination. On the other hand, if he reaches age 45, and at that point is willing to remain celibate, he could then be ordained a deacon.
I have a question on another marriage related subject however. Does Rome allow a widow to marry her late husband's brother? It was required in the Old Testament and Orthodox Judaism still practices this. The Orthodox Church forbids such a marriage. I couldn't even marry my late wife's first cousin(assuming I wasn't a priest and wanted to do such a thing.) Also, in the Orthodox Church, two brothers may not marry two sisters. It is evident that Rome has no such prohibitions' because in the Byzantine Catholic Church near where I grew up, three brothers married three sisters in the early years of the last century!

Last edited by Fr. Al; 05/14/18 06:24 PM. Reason: punctuation
Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418258 05/20/18 03:55 AM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,157
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,157
St John Paul abrogated the canons of affinity by marriage in the Latin Code. They remain in the Eastern Code but I imagine a dispensation may be requested.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418259 05/20/18 01:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,680
Deacon John Montalvo Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,680
Fr Al,

With respect to your statement about widowed clergy, I seem to recall the case of Fr Joseph Allen of the Antiochian Archdiocese, who was reinstated to the presbyterate by +Metropolitan PHILLIP after Fr Joseph married a woman he had counseled to divorce her husband. Is this an anomaly among the Orthodox Churches or is this an exercise of oikonomia?

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418266 05/23/18 01:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,457
theophan Online Content
Moderator
Member
Online Content
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,457
Father Al:

Father bless!!

Please offer your son my sincere condolences on the loss of his wife after so short a time. I cannot imagine his heartbreak and pain. Prayers for the Lord to step in and help him carry this corss.

Bob

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: ajk] #418268 05/23/18 02:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 495
F
Fr. Al Offline
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 495
Fr. Deacon:

As I see it, Metropolitan Philip clearly violated the canons in the case you cited .Oikonomia would be letting someone commune without fasting the prescribed time because of the need to take medicine. Or(in the case of my flock), celebrating the entire Paschal cycle at 8:00 AM Sunday morning, because the large number of elderly people makes the traditional midnight celebration ill-advised.
Regarding the changes the late Pope made in Canon Law, am I to understand that prior to this two brothers couldn't marry two sisters? Then the three brothers marrying the three sisters in the Byzantine Catholic Church would have required a dispensation? This happened so long ago that it may have been done at the time of Bishop Sotyr Ortinsky.
Also, may a Catholic man marry his brother's widow? I saw a movie some years back where an Orthodox Jew died. At first, the brother(not very observant) didn't want anything to do with it. He changed his mind when he was told that in a ceremony he would be required to renounce everything pertaining to his late brother.

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: ajk] #418269 05/23/18 02:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 495
F
Fr. Al Offline
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 495
The Lord Bless!

Thank you, Bob, for your prayers and condolences! I'm sure for my son it is a heavy cross. It was hard enough to lose my wife of 30 years. Since both of Colleen's parents are still alive, it's a cross they must bear as well.

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418271 05/24/18 01:14 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 396
J
JimG Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 396
I certainly cannot speak to the canons but I can tell you that my ancestors who were all German Roman Catholics (those people have a reputation for strictly following the rules) for the last 150+ years regularly had brothers from one family marry sisters from another as well as brother and sister from one family marrying brother and sister from another. I know of at least one case where two brothers were married to two sisters. One of the brothers and one of the sisters died and the surviving brother and sister then married each other.

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418274 05/24/18 02:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Fr. Al,

I believe Rome allows it -- some Eastern sui iuris Church canons do not allow it, however, are almost always 'dispensed' or 'economia given' in nearly every request.

Re: Orthodox divorce [Re: Fr. Al] #418280 05/26/18 01:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,006
dochawk Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,006
Originally Posted by Fr. Al
Does Rome allow a widow to marry her late husband's brother? It was required in the Old Testament and Orthodox Judaism still practices this. The Orthodox Church forbids such a marriage.


This prohibition is the origin of the church of England smile

Henry VIII had a papal dispensation to marry his brother's widow, obtained by claim of non-c0onsumation of his brother's marriage. He later claimed that his brother's marriage *had* been consummated, and that even the pope couldn't grant such a dispensation.

I don't know anything about the other limits you mention.

And my heart and prayers for your son's loss and his wife's soul.

hawk


Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3