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Marriage convalidation
#418350 06/26/18 07:03 PM
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Greetings,

I was wondering, can two Roman Catholics have their marriage con-validated in a Byzantine Church? Is a special dispensation from the Latin Bishop necessary?

Was having this discussion with a friend and was curious.

Thanks!

Re: Marriage convalidation
Icon Guy #418352 06/27/18 03:31 AM
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The couple would need “permission” from the local Latin ordinary, not dispensation. The local ordinary would delegate the Byzantine priest to witness the marriage. There must be some compelling reason for the permission to be granted (for example, the parties are members of the Byzantine parish).

Re: Marriage convalidation
Deacon John Montalvo #418353 06/27/18 11:30 AM
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This is what I figured too. Would they (two Roman Catholics) be considered members of a Byzantine parish or just attending the parish? Does membership of a parish in the sense of canon law (whatever the terminology there) imply membership, in the strict theological sense, in an eparchy/diocese and, therefore, membership in a sui iuris church?

Re: Marriage convalidation
ajk #418403 07/21/18 04:33 PM
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Baptism determines ascription in a particular sui juris Catholic Church. Membership in a parish is different than ascription in a a particular Church. Normally, one would be a member of a parish of the particular Church in which he/she is ascribed.

The is a formal process for one who wants to change one’s Church ascription; it is more than filling out a membership form at a parish.

Re: Marriage convalidation
Deacon John Montalvo #418404 07/22/18 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Deacon John Montalvo
Baptism determines ascription in a particular sui juris Catholic Church. Membership in a parish is different than ascription in a a particular Church. Normally, one would be a member of a parish of the particular Church in which he/she is ascribed.

The is a formal process for one who wants to change one’s Church ascription; it is more than filling out a membership form at a parish.
Exactly. A Latin church couple has their child baptized in a Byzantine parish: the child is a member of the Latin church not the Byzantine. The parents and child attend a Byzantine parish exclusively: they are members of the Latin church.

There are no freelance Catholics, all are members of a church, that is, a diocese or eparchy, a particular church, a community with a bishop. What of validly baptized Christians that worship in an ecclesial community that is not such a church? Must they not in some way be considered ascribed to a particular church?

Re: Marriage convalidation
ajk #418405 07/23/18 01:34 PM
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Validly baptized non-Catholic Christians are not ascribed to a sui iuris Church until those Christians come into full communion with the Catholic Church.

With and only with ascription the Christian faithful of the Catholic Church acquire certain rights and obligations.

Re: Marriage convalidation
Deacon John Montalvo #418406 07/23/18 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Deacon John Montalvo
Validly baptized non-Catholic Christians are not ascribed to a sui iuris Church until those Christians come into full communion with the Catholic Church.
I understand this in law. For a theology, focusing on the importance and necessity of the particular church as the fundamental basis of the eucharistic community, as expressed for instance by Zizioulas as I understand him, it is not so clear.

Originally Posted by Deacon John Montalvo
With and only with ascription the Christian faithful of the Catholic Church acquire certain rights and obligations.
Yes. My question is about those other baptized, Christians, who are understood as not in the category of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, outside the church no salvation.

Re: Marriage convalidation
ajk #418408 07/23/18 10:21 PM
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I understood your question, Church ascription is a canonical term that only pertains to those Christian faithful in FULL communion with the Catholic Church.

Validly baptized non-Catholic Christians are not in full communion with the Catholic Church (the Vatican II Fathers noted this as “imperfect communion”), and as a result would not need to be ascribed to a particular sui iuris Church.

Re: Marriage convalidation
Deacon John Montalvo #418409 07/23/18 11:01 PM
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And I understand your point. To elaborate on mine: good canon law is good applied theology but it can also not rise to the level of theological precision or fullness of expression. So I'm wanting to be further enlightened about details of that "imperfect communion" and how it fits into ecclesiology, the Church, and by that I understand the Church as a eucharistic community of many eucharistic communities -- a Church of churches to use the words of J.-M.R. Tillard.

Re: Marriage convalidation
Icon Guy #418411 07/24/18 05:14 AM
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Ok, consult the original sources, for instance this:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_..._19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

Re: Marriage convalidation
Deacon John Montalvo #418412 07/24/18 11:08 AM
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Thanks Fr. Deacon, I'll take another look at them. It is the theological underpinnings of the sources that my questions attempt to probe.

Re: Marriage convalidation
Deacon John Montalvo #418535 09/06/18 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Deacon John Montalvo
The couple would need “permission” from the local Latin ordinary, not dispensation. The local ordinary would delegate the Byzantine priest to witness the marriage. There must be some compelling reason for the permission to be granted (for example, the parties are members of the Byzantine parish).


Is "we want to wear nice crowns" a valid reason, Father Deacon?


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