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Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: Diak] #295510 07/18/08 01:48 PM
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domilsean Offline
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If I may ask a slightly off-topic question: why is WARM/HOT water added? I always assumed it was because otherwise the water would have frozen in Russia or whatever... but I'm starting to think I'm wrong. Does it symbolize the temperature of the human body that blood would be?

Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: domilsean] #295518 07/18/08 03:40 PM
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I was taught in my (Latin Catholic) liturgy course that during the course of the Divine Liturgy the warm water was added to signify the resurrection: cold blood belongs to a dead body, warm blood comes from a living body.

Now, what came first: the practicality of de-icing the accidents of the wine or the spiritual symbolism... I'll let one of the others answer that one.


Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: Fr. Jon] #295535 07/18/08 06:14 PM
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The interpretation of a liturgical action sometimes acquires a variety of meanings and explanations that have evolved over time -- for better or worse. The (colder-climate) Slavs certainly have the rite of the warm water, teplota, but so do the (warmer-climate) Greeks, the zeon.

Whatever the evolution and applicability of a meaning -- and even if not the original meaning it may still be ok -- the rite itself, words and actions, should provide the surest or objective understanding and intent. And so, according to the Ruthenian Recension, 1965 liturgicon:

Quote
Deacon: Amen.

And taking the warm water, he says to the priest:

Master, bless the warm water.

The priest blesses it, saying:

Blessed be the fervor of Your saints, always, now and ever, and forever. Amen.

And the deacon pours a little in the form of a cross into the holy chalice, saying:

The fervor of the faith, full of the Holy Spirit Amen

And putting aside the warm water, he stands a little to the side.



Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: ajk] #295557 07/19/08 01:52 AM
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Diak Offline
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1988 UGCC Liturgikon:
And taking some warm water, he (the deacon) says to the priest:
Master, bless the warm water.

The priest blesses and says:Blessed be the warming of Your Holy Gifts always, now and for ever and ever. Amen.

The deacon pours in the form of a cross into the holy chalice, saying:Warmth of faith full of the Holy Spirit. Amen.


1967 OCA Liturgikon:
Deacon: Bless, Master, the warm water.

The priest blesses the warm water, saying:
Blessed is the warmth of Thy holy things always, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The deacon pours a sufficient quantity of water into the chalice cross-wise, saying:The warmth of faith, full of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: ajk] #418340 06/23/18 09:56 PM
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I was going over some old posts and happened upon this thread and thought it time to share a conjecture of some 2½ years ago.

I wanted to test hot versus warm as a translation in the Teplota service of the Liturgy. I went to the Greek first and expected to find Zeon as a canned word for hot/warm/what-ever water. Instead I found no such thing in terms of basic meaning. Perseus - Zeon

ζέω boil, seethe, ferment, bubble up, exhale (yeast)

Both Greek and Recension texts have a consistent usage (attachment).

Water in Greek, for example, would be (noun) νερό or ύδωρ but it's not there in the Greek text.

So, its boiling/hot/heated/warm/fervent water but water is NOT explicit in these texts, even in the rubrics.

The RDL takes more liberties with the exact wording and the focus subtlety shifts even more to being on the water rather than the quality of the water.

Quote
The deacon takes the hot water and says to the celebrant:

DEACON: Reverend Father, bless the hot water.

The celebrant blesses the hot water, saying:

CELEBRANT: Blessed be the fervor of your holy ones, always, now and ever and forever.

The deacon pours a little water in the form of a cross into the chalice, saying:

DEACON:
The fervor of faith, full of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Putting aside the water, the deacon stands a little to the side.


My point/observation is that water is not explicit in the Slavonic and Greek texts, and that it is not the focus. So the deacon does not ask that the water per se be blessed but the quality of the water -- water is just a medium -- and it is the quality that is then sustained throughout the teplota/zeon service, viz. eliminating the (only implied) water from the rendering, i.e. just translating what's actually there (see attachment):

Quote
Deacon: Amen.

And taking the fervor, he says to the priest:

Master, bless the fervor.

The priest blesses it, saying:

Blessed be the fervor of Your Holy-ones, always, now and forever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

And the deacon pours a little in the form of a cross into the holy cup, saying:

The fervor of the faith, full of the Holy Spirit Amen

And putting aside the fervor, he stands a little to the side.


This may seem to be too extreme (though it is just an unembellished rendering) and as a check I expected that the Ordo , emphasizing rubrics, would explicitly mention water. It does but surprisingly it is consistent in the Latin where, for instance, the Keleher-Figel translation is not, in mentioning water. Water is explicit in the rubrics -- " aquae ferventis ," boiling water -- but the Latin translation of the liturgy's text does not mention water. In the Keleher-Figel translation the ceremony of the hot/fervent water becomes (what I'd say has become a technical term) the Zeon and the deacon asks that hot water be blessed where the Ordo has just fervidam/heating. So I'm wondering whether subtle, seeming reasonable, presumptions in the translations have not resulted in giving the wrong focus. (Yes, I know no one understands it this way).

Also, the sense of the zeon/teplota is an aspect of the cup/wine/blood that complements the bread/body, i.e., analogous not so much to the yeast (although see the possible meanings above) of the bread/body but -- the sense of boiling -- to the quality of leavening.

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Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: ajk] #418341 06/23/18 11:20 PM
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ajk:

Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

Do you think that the use of boiling water is linked to the idea that our God is a "Living Fire," as some descriptions of Him have it? Then there is a Didactic Verse in my Orthodox prayerbook that reads

"O mortal, when thou makest ready to receive The Master's Body, come with fear, lest thou be burned: For It is Fire."

It reminds me of St. Paul's admonition to us in part of the Communion Epistle (Corinthians 11:27-29) in the same prayerbook: "Whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread, and drink of the cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's Body."

It is no accident that the invitation is "With the fear of God, with faith, and love, draw near."

Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: theophan] #418343 06/24/18 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by theophan
ajk:

Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

Do you think that the use of boiling water is linked to the idea that our God is a "Living Fire," as some descriptions of Him have it? Then there is a Didactic Verse in my Orthodox prayerbook that reads

"O mortal, when thou makest ready to receive The Master's Body, come with fear, lest thou be burned: For It is Fire."
Glory forever.

I'd say this is a subjective, interpretive imagery (see below at the end) that fits.

Originally Posted by theophan
It reminds me of St. Paul's admonition to us in part of the Communion Epistle (Corinthians 11:27-29) in the same prayerbook: "Whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread, and drink of the cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's Body."

It is no accident that the invitation is "With the fear of God, with faith, and love, draw near."
Yes. (BTW the Rthenian Recension does not have the "and love" that is in the Volgata recensions.) Scripture and liturgy have a depth of meaning. My comments actually sprung from a translation consideration hence the reference to the RDL (I also looked at the 1967 translation where the word water also appears though it's less prominent than in the RDL. This post is in this forum rather than the RDL because I didn't want to start a new thread and it is a continuation of this one.)

Since it's based on translation and wanting to practice what I've preached, "literal a possible, free as necessary" (NSRV preface), I've tried to stay close to the "letter." I had it in my notes to mention the most explicit scripture reference but neglected to include it in the post as intended. It is:

BGT Romans 12:11 τῇ σπουδῇ μὴ ὀκνηροί, τῷ πνεύματι ζέοντες, τῷ κυρίῳ δουλεύοντες, (Rom 12:11 BGT)

literally: by diligence not slothful, by the spirit fervent, by (means of) the Lord serving

[The nouns are in the dative, so I take it as a dative of means, so literally by means of ]

A favorite dictum of mine regarding understanding and interpreting is from Hugh of St. Victor, “De Scripturis et Scriptoribus Sacris,” PL 175, c13, which I see as complementing the NRSV objective from a medieval perspective:

Litteram legimus sed non secundum litteram, We read the letter but not according to the letter -- as you have appropriately done.


Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: ajk] #418427 07/28/18 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ajk

I was going over some old posts and happened upon this thread and thought it time to share a conjecture of some 2½ years ago.

...


Fascinating. Thank you.

Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: ajk] #418433 07/30/18 09:38 PM
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You might take a peak at the Melkite, too--I was stunned to find that they also have this practice . . .

hawk

Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: dochawk] #418434 07/31/18 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by dochawk
You might take a peak at the Melkite, too--I was stunned to find that they also have this practice . . .
What practice is that? Why "stunned"?

Last edited by ajk; 07/31/18 01:30 AM.
Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: ajk] #418436 08/01/18 01:50 AM
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My pastor, formerly Orthodox and has lived on Athos, insists it be boiling, not just warm.


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Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: ajk] #418462 08/14/18 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ajk

Originally Posted by dochawk
You might take a peak at the Melkite, too--I was stunned to find that they also have this practice . . .
What practice is that?


the hot water added to the cup.

Quote

Why "stunned"?


It originated in churches that were so cold and poorly insulated in winter that the wine freezing was an issue--thus the slavic practice.

The Melkites however, are in a mediterranean climate.

hawk

Re: Sacramental Wine [Re: dochawk] #418464 08/14/18 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by dochawk
Originally Posted by ajk

Originally Posted by dochawk
You might take a peak at the Melkite, too--I was stunned to find that they also have this practice . . .
What practice is that?


the hot water added to the cup.

Quote

Why "stunned"?


It originated in churches that were so cold and poorly insulated in winter that the wine freezing was an issue--thus the slavic practice.

The Melkites however, are in a mediterranean climate.

hawk

Zeon preceded the evangelization of the Northern Slavs.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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