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Re: Answers for a painful saga [Re: Protopappas76] #418537
09/06/18 07:48 PM
09/06/18 07:48 PM
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Hollidaysburg, PA
theophan Offline
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Protopappas76:

I agree with your post 100%. I just wonder how we get form point "A" to point "B" (some improved future). My analysis of the Roman system is that it is a feudal model: every bishop has a personal relationship to the pope and can thumb his nose at any other if he chooses. The conferences of bishops in each country really has no jurisdictional authority and cannot enforce anything without the consent of each bishop.

I think everyone sneared at the book "Goodbye, Good Men" published probably 15 or so years ago. It spoke of many of these things and all the clergy authorities claimed it was all fabrication. I knew of some of the dioceses and situations mentioned so I was not surprised.

This time a lot more people have become disillusioned and the damage is still in its infancy.

I, too, believe what the Lord has promised that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail." I am convinced He will be with us to the end of the age and His Church will be purified by this.

Re: Answers for a painful saga [Re: theophan] #418540
09/08/18 09:50 PM
09/08/18 09:50 PM
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Protopappas76 Offline OP
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Not long ago I found termites eating away part of my home. I called a contractor and the exterminator. The contractor had to pull out part of a wall. The exterminator then did whatever exterminators do. The contractor came back and rebuilt the wall. And I signed a contract for regular inspections. Was it painful? I'm sure that the termites thought so. And, when I got the bill, I thought so too. But te bottom line was the pain was necessary if I was to have a safe house.

So too, the Church. Painful? Yes! Necessary? Yes! Sadly, there will even be mistakes in the process. But the bottom line is the necessity if the Church is to be restored as the "most pure bride" she is callled to be.

Pray for Christ's Church.

Re: Answers for a painful saga [Re: Protopappas76] #418542
09/09/18 05:19 PM
09/09/18 05:19 PM
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Thomas the Seeker Offline
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Good metaphor.

But a note of caution: History shows that attempts to "purify" can take on a life of their own and expand their mission in ways that ultimately become as sin-infested as that which they originally sought to eradicate.

Re: Answers for a painful saga [Re: Protopappas76] #418556
09/12/18 01:54 AM
09/12/18 01:54 AM
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Alas, "there is no perfection this side of the pale." Yet, strive we must.

Re: Answers for a painful saga [Re: theophan] #418575
09/24/18 02:53 AM
09/24/18 02:53 AM
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"There was also--IMHO--a mistake made many years ago when Pope St. John Paul 2 held a synod about the priesthood. A proposal was made for second-career married men to be trained: children grown and independent, marriage stable, already involved in parish activities. The unanimous decision of the synod bishops was a resounding "no" to that suggestion. Again, this may not be the complete answer, but it would bring a new, additional perspective to the life of the Church."

I agree completely that this was a mistake. Very few can handle the power assumed to come from an ontological change that happens at ordination at the age of 26 (give or take a few years). A man who has raised a family successfully and has handled the ups and downs of working under good and bad managers, learning from wise and poor financial decisions, maintaining positive relationships with co-workers and families, and known by rubbing elbows with fellow parishioners for years is much more likely to deal with church issues in a healthy way than a young inexperienced person, no matter how dedicated. There are some things that can be learned only by making mistakes or dealing with one's own reactions in situations that parishioners also experience day in-day out.

The addition of married clergy is one part of the overall reform that has to occur to keep clergy and parishes healthy, in my opinion. However, I don't think that the model of priest as CEO, presider, spiritual guide, counselor, and more in a parish is sustainable from a psychological standpoint. It's too much and too demanding, particularly for those who are married. There have to be limits, boundaries, and people available to take over major parts of church operations and ministries in order for the organization to be healthy. Perhaps all clergy should be part-time to keep perspective and balance. All spiritual life and no normal living, especially in isolation, can become a trap and misery. Part-time clergy status would also settle some concerns that the cost of supporting an entire family by a parish may be overwhelming. Eventually, the top-down approach will have to be largely replaced by a conciliar model of equals for the priesthood to function well in a highly educated, diverse society. Psychologists and doctors have learned, often the hard way, to work hard to avoid being overwhelmed by the responsibilities of their positions. Those who fail to do this often report great dissatisfaction with their roles.

From what I have heard from "preachers' kids", being a child in a household headed by a priest or a minister is incredibly stressful because every action is scrutinized (or thought to be scrutinized) by the church community. Thus, I think that married priesthood should be reserved for those whose children are young adults.

Even though marriage would not solve the situation of abuse by clergy completely, I think that there is a certain "radar" that develops when one is a spouse and a parent regarding behaviors that might be overlooked by others without that experience. Such "radar" would be very useful in detecting problematic issues early.

Re: Answers for a painful saga [Re: Thomas the Seeker] #418582
09/24/18 05:08 PM
09/24/18 05:08 PM
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LadyBlue Offline
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Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker


More and more, it seems, the three year Master of Divinity in a Residential Seminary no longer fits the students or the needs of the church.

Re: Answers for a painful saga [Re: Thomas the Seeker] #418583
09/24/18 05:14 PM
09/24/18 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker


More and more, it seems, the three year Master of Divinity in a Residential Seminary no longer fits the students or the needs of the church.


This is following the trend of some other professional education programs (social work, law, nursing, occupational therapy, etc.). I think new models for second career individuals or those who are making a change in career are going to expand and that the residential setting will become more rare or will make major adjustments to accommodate the non-traditional, more mature student.

The trick for all of these new models that involve services to others is the vetting process which is hard to do unless one sees the student and how he or she responds to various events on a daily basis. That's where the parish will have to take a stronger role, because online, part-time, and weekend education will not provide the information that comes from observing the student in a residential setting on a regular basis.

Re: Answers for a painful saga [Re: Thomas the Seeker] #418584
09/25/18 09:39 AM
09/25/18 09:39 AM
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theophan Offline
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Quote
. . . the three year Maser of Divinity in a Residential Seminary . . .


Thomas the Seeker:

Christ is in our midst!!

I'm puzzled by this. The seminarians in my diocese have a six or seven year program that includes pre-theology before a four-year program of studies. An acquaintance of mine at the Archdiocesan seminary in Philadelphia told me his program is a year longer.

I think they still get an MDiv, but sound like it is longer than three years. ???

Bob

Re: Answers for a painful saga [Re: LadyBlue] #418585
09/25/18 09:47 AM
09/25/18 09:47 AM
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theophan Offline
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LadyBlue:

Christ is in our midst!!

Part time sounds like a solution until you get into a large parish. What happens if the priest cannot get out of work to do a funeral during the week? What happens to emergencies that always come up?

I'm a funeral director by training and profession. After half a century of being on call 24/7, I can tell you that part time just does not work in some professions. I believe that clergy is a profession like mine from the many conversations I have had with clergy over the years, comparing notes about the demands of our jobs and lives. Just as i cannot tell a family whose loved one suddenly passes at home to wait until I get out of my other job, a priest cannot tell a family that a sudden call for someone suddenly hospitalized will have to wait.

The problem with Catholics is that they do not have the habit of tithing and sacrificial giving. Part of that may be the fact that there is no transparency about how much comes in where the money goes. If the laity had the ability to have meaningful input into parish budgets, that might eventually change. But, currently, the big payouts give the impression that the money is going to pay for past sins and people are angry about that.

Bob

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