The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
The Cub, P H, Hardrada, DMP, Kyrie Eleison
5601 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (theophan, Kyrie Eleison), 77 guests, and 426 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,728
Posts411,853
Members5,601
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Ukrainian autocephaly #418604
10/11/18 07:00 PM
10/11/18 07:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,440
Hollidaysburg, PA
theophan Online content OP
Moderator
theophan  Online Content OP
Moderator
Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,440
Hollidaysburg, PA
I just read a report that His All-Holiness and the Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate has recognized the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's independence from the Moscow Patriarchate in the past few days. He has recognized the leader of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kievan Patriarchate as the canonical Orthodox Church on the territory of Ukraine.

Has anyone else seen this?

Quote
The Ecumenical Patriarchate continues the procedure of granting autocephaly to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, as stated in the decision made at the meeting of the Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, published on the Patriarchate's website. Following extensive deliberations, the Holy Synod decreed to "renew the decision already made that the Ecumenical Patriarchate proceed to the granting of Autocephaly to the Church of Ukraine," the decision says. The Synod has also decreed to "reestablish, at this moment, the Stavropegion of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Kyiv, one of its many Stavropegia in Ukraine that existed there always." It is decreed to "accept and review the petitions of appeal of Filaret Denisenko, Makariy Maletych and their followers, who found themselves in schism not for dogmatic reasons, in accordance with the canonical prerogatives of the Patriarch of Constantinople to receive such petitions by hierarchs and other clergy from all of the Autocephalous Churches. Thus, the above-mentioned have been canonically reinstated to their hierarchical or priestly rank, and their faithful have been restored to communion with the Church." ...To revoke the legal binding of the Synodal Letter of the year 1686, issued for the circumstances of that time, which granted the right through oikonomia to the Patriarch of Moscow to ordain the Metropolitan of Kyiv, elected by the Clergy-Laity Assembly of his eparchy, who would commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch as the First hierarch at any celebration, proclaiming and affirming his canonical dependence to the Mother Church of Constantinople. The Holy Synod also appeals to all sides involved that they "avoid appropriation of Churches, Monasteries and other properties, as well as every other act of violence and retaliation, so that the peace and love of Christ may prevail." If you see a spelling error on our site, select it and press Ctrl+Enter

Read more on UNIAN: https://www.unian.info/society/1029...to-church-of-ukraine-synod-decision.html


There is also a mention that this action is on the website of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Bob

Last edited by theophan; 10/11/18 07:07 PM. Reason: add story
Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: theophan] #418605
10/12/18 02:34 AM
10/12/18 02:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Chicago
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Michael_Thoma  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Chicago
Confirmed:

https://www.rferl.org/a/constantino...-ukrainian-orthodox-church/29538590.html


Ecumenical Patriarchate Agrees To Recognize Independence Of Ukrainian Church
Last Updated: October 11, 2018 20:27 GMT

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: theophan] #418606
10/12/18 01:18 PM
10/12/18 01:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,440
Hollidaysburg, PA
theophan Online content OP
Moderator
theophan  Online Content OP
Moderator
Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,440
Hollidaysburg, PA
Christ is in our midst!!

As I followed this news, it seems that the Ecumenical Patriarchate has recognized two groups: the former "Kiev Patriarchate" and the "Autocephalous" group. So two bodies that were not recognized prior to this date have both become canonical.

Does that mean that they will find their way together to form one?

Bob

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: theophan] #418607
10/12/18 02:31 PM
10/12/18 02:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 231
USA
S
SwanOfEndlessTales Offline
Member
SwanOfEndlessTales  Offline
Member
S

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 231
USA
According to Archbishop Daniel (one of the two EP exarchs) there is supposed to be a congress of the bishops of UAOC, KP, and any bishops of the UOC who want to be there. This body would formulate the structure of the new church and elect a primate, at which point the new church will receive the Tomos of autocephaly from the EP.

What does that make these bishops now? Is Makariy still metropolitan? Is Filaret still Patriarch? This is where it's rather murky and confusing.

I think both MP and EP have conducted themselves very poorly in this matter.

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: theophan] #418617
10/21/18 06:53 PM
10/21/18 06:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,440
Hollidaysburg, PA
theophan Online content OP
Moderator
theophan  Online Content OP
Moderator
Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,440
Hollidaysburg, PA
Christ is in our midst!!

This set of events pains me. To me, it is always cause for sorrow when brethren are at odds with each other.

Bob

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: theophan] #418675
12/08/18 04:55 AM
12/08/18 04:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Dear Bob,

How have you been sir? FYI, the special Church Council of the unification of the Ukrainian Orthodox into one autocephalous Church will take place on December 15 - next week. This Sobor will be participated in by the hierarchs of the Kyivan Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and ten hierarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (who signed the original petition to the EP to ask for the grant of autocephaly - led by Metropolitan Aleksandr (Drabenko)). There could also be more hierarchs who would move away from the MP - we shall see.

This will be a joyous occasion for millions of Ukrainian Orthodox and that around the world as they will have a unified and canonical autocephalous Orthodox Church for the first time that will be free of the Moscow Patriarchate. The real brethren will no longer be at odds with each other and will embrace one another in love and respect. The Moscow Patriarchate is not a brother. Quite the opposite in fact.

Cheers, Alex

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: theophan] #418676
12/08/18 01:48 PM
12/08/18 01:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,570
Glasgow, Scotland
O
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member
Our Lady's slave  Offline
Member
O

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,570
Glasgow, Scotland
Alex - how wonderful to see you post again smile

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: theophan] #418682
12/10/18 05:56 PM
12/10/18 05:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
How have you been Anhelyna? Did you find the Lestovkas you mentioned way back when?

Alex

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: theophan] #418683
12/10/18 07:24 PM
12/10/18 07:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,570
Glasgow, Scotland
O
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member
Our Lady's slave  Offline
Member
O

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,570
Glasgow, Scotland
Indeed and I did - and they are well used smile

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly #418688
12/15/18 10:44 PM
12/15/18 10:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Chicago
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Michael_Thoma  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Chicago
https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-so...inian-autocephalous-orthodox-church.html

Metropolitan of Pereiaslav and Bila Tserkva Epifaniy (Serhiy Dumenko) has been elected primate of the local Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Epifaniy was elected by secret ballot at the unification council of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church held at Kyiv's St. Sophia Cathedral on Saturday, December 15, an Ukrinform correspondent reported.

He was nominated by the Bishops' Council of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyiv Patriarchate on Thursday.

"Today is December 15. This day will go down in history as a sacred day, a day of the creation of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, a day of final independence from the Russian Federation," President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko said. He together with Metropolitan Epifaniy addressed people at the square near St. Sophia Cathedral.

President Poroshenko stressed that ”the issue of autocephaly is an issue of our Ukrainian national security." "Finally, we gain spiritual independence, which can be compared with gaining political independence. We cut off the chains that bind us to the empire. We return to our God-determined path and go our own way,” the president noted.

Last edited by Michael_Thoma; 12/15/18 10:45 PM.
Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: Michael_Thoma] #418689
12/15/18 10:48 PM
12/15/18 10:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Chicago
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Michael_Thoma  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Chicago

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: Michael_Thoma] #418694
12/17/18 06:42 PM
12/17/18 06:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,440
Hollidaysburg, PA
theophan Online content OP
Moderator
theophan  Online Content OP
Moderator
Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,440
Hollidaysburg, PA
Christ is in our midst!!

What happens to the former heads of the two bodies that met to form this new autocephalous Church? (Patriarch Filaret and the Metropolitan of the Autocephalous Church) Do they retire?

Bob

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: Michael_Thoma] #418695
12/17/18 08:16 PM
12/17/18 08:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 231
USA
S
SwanOfEndlessTales Offline
Member
SwanOfEndlessTales  Offline
Member
S

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 231
USA
I believe officially they will retire. However, since Metropolitan Epifaniy is Filaret's chosen protégé, Filaret may well continue running things behind the scenes. The independence of the new church is also rather dubious- the terms of the charter that were released indicate that it will be a dependency of Constantinople.

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: Michael_Thoma] #418711
12/19/18 06:26 PM
12/19/18 06:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Well, better Constantinople than Moscow for the Ukrainian Church. Constantinople never tried to Hellenize the Kyivan Church or dominate it as did the Moscow Patriarchate in history. I would not be surprised if a significant portion of the Ukrainian Catholic faithful in Ukraine decided to "move over" to the autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in time. (I know there are Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox who just don't see the difference between the Churches. For example, when Ukrainian Orthodox emigrate to Canada, they don't balk at attending a Ukrainian Catholic parish. I knew a number of "old guard" Ukrainian Orthodox, including one university professor, who attended St Nicholas parish here. St Nicholas was and is where the "intelligentsia" attend. When asked why he, as an Orthodox Christian, attended there, he would always respond "My family attends the "true Orthodox" church . . .go figure). According to surveys, fully 25% of Ukrainian Orthodox faithful never saw the distinction between parishes of the Kyivan Patriarchate or the Moscow Patriarchate. They only went wherever it said "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" and wouldnt think of attending the ROC. Once things become clear, the ROC in Ukraine will lose even more parishioners to the new Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in communion with His All-Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

Let's remember that the MP did this to itself beginning with appointing Metropolitan Onuphrius following the death of Metropolitan Vladimir (Sabodan) Memory Eternal!. And it fired a number of Ukrainian Orthodox priests and bishops from administrative posts including seminary positions because of their pro-Ukrainian sympathies. Metropolitan Alexander (Drabenko) is a case in point. He was actually taken into custody by the pro-Russian authorities in Kyiv during the Maidan protests and suffered greatly due to his pro-Ukrainian sympathies. He had, after all, begun experimenting with Ukrainian-Language liturgies and began holding panakhydas for the reposed Hetman Ivan Mazepa who was excommunicated by the ROC when he turned against Peter I and became a symbol of Ukrainian independence of Russia. (Patriarch St Tikhon the Hieroconfessor was, as a number of stated, in favour of lifting that anathema and even said, at one point, that it was invalid as it was done for political reasons etc.). Ukrainian Catholics are familiar with panalkhydas for Hetman Mazepa as many Ukrainian Orthodox would approach our priests to serve them on September 21, the day he died, due to the fact that their own priests, under the ROC, were forbidden from doing so due to his excommunication. But I digress...

And what really pained many is how Metropolitan Onuphrius refused to stand in the Ukrainian parliament when military medals were awarded to soldiers. Ukrainian Muslims stood, but not the Primate of the UOC-MP (or the MP's satellite in Ukraine). When asked later by journalists why he wouldn't stand up to honour the nation's heroes, he simply said, among other things, "we don't honour killers." I wonder if His Beatitude would have had the intestinal fortitude to stand before Mr. Putin in Moscow and do and say something similar when Russian soldiers were being awarded medals . . .

His All-Holiness is now WILDLY popular in Ukraine and throughout the Ukrainian diaspora. He is, I dare say, MUCH more popular among many Ukrainian Catholics than any pope ever was. And this is something that we Ukrainian Catholics have also brought on ourselves with our patriarchal movement. It was grossly naive of us to think Rome would ever acknowledge a patriarchate for our Church, the largest EC Church and the Decree on the EC Churches notwithstanding. For too long, we have been a big bump in the ecumenical road travelled by Rome toward Moscow. We shall see how the new ecclesial realities in Ukraine will impact the UGCC - the descendant of the Unia which Rome constantly apologizes for to the Orthodox.

As for the former heads of the two bodies, they will continue as hierarchs, they are not retiring at all. That is what Metropolitan Evstathius affirmed in a number of Ukrainian language interviews on the subject. And His Beatitude Metropolitan Epifanij was the patriarchal locum tenens, I believe the term is in the KP. All the Hierarchs at the Sobor last Saturday voted and I was personally surprised that Patriarch Filaret was not chosen (as many said he would be). They couldn't have made a better choice than in the person of Metropolitan Epifanij who will eventually become the first canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarch of Kyiv and all Ukraine.

My relatives in Ukraine, both Catholic and Orthodox, went out to dance in the streets on Saturday at the news of the decisions of the Sobor. Many hearts of the same in the Diaspora danced as well. I know mine did.

Alex

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly [Re: theophan] #418713
12/20/18 08:33 AM
12/20/18 08:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
Private
T
The young fogey Offline
Member
The young fogey  Offline
Member
T

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
Private
I go to the Ukrainian Catholic Church for Liturgy and Communion. I go to the Russian Orthodox Church, whose music I know, for Vigil as Communion prep. I see our lack of such services as an ecumenical opportunity: that the Byzantine Catholic churches are not perfect is a reminder that our work is far from done. (Part of that work is explaining the entire Catholic faith all in Orthodox terms.) And why duplicate services? Let's buddy up. Anyway, this whole row in the Ukraine is unseemly and makes our work, of bringing ALL the Orthodox into the church, so much harder. (And yes; it's THE Ukraine, for the same reason I don't say "Paree.") Not Uniatism: we're not trying to break them up. Metropolitan Sviatoslav is canonically in charge — for now. But of course most Ukrainian Christians aren't Catholic — yet. They seem about evenly divided between the original canonical Orthodox there, the Russian Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Onuphrey of Kiev, and what was ex-Metropolitan Filaret's Kyiv Patriarchate, now Constantinople's metropolia there possibly becoming autocephalous: Metropolitan Epifany. When you hitch the church to politics, pretty soon it's about the politics, not Christ. Ukrainianness (and Russianness for that matter) is well and good, but God didn't become man, suffer, and rise again to be a mascot for Ukrainianness. Religiously, their independence is a matter of indifference for me. I don't live in the Ukraine.

The Russians are right. De facto, ecclesiastically the Ukraine is theirs; autocephaly is up to them. Metropolitan Onuphrey is de facto the rightful Metropolitan of Kiev, the head of most of the Ukraine's Christians, the Orthodox. If all the Orthodox returned to us, de jure he would be metropolitan; Sviatoslav should either step aside (as Andrew Sheptytsky offered to do) or the two could co-exist but ultimately there would only be the Kiev metropolia. The Patriarch of Constantinople has no right to do what he's doing in the Ukraine.

Sviatoslav is not perfect: he harps on "rights" and religious liberty like a Western liberal. Frankly I tune him out.

Yes, I know the Kiev metropolia, not only all of the Ukraine but Byelorussia, was ours at one point, the 1596 unia, squashed by Russian expansion and persecution, but that's water under the bridge. We ought to be concerned with reconciling all the Orthodox now, not holding grudges.

Remember, our goal is to bring BOTH Constantinople and Moscow back into the church. We are not trying to break up the Orthodox, so we should not try to pit Constantinople against Moscow.

This battle of the canonical patriarchs shows there is no such thing as the Orthodox Church; they're all independent. There is an Orthodox tradition, but only the Catholic Church has authority. But again, we are not trying to break them up. They need to get their house in order in the Ukraine. The best thing we can do is stay out of it and pray.

In practice among the Orthodox around the world it's not a big deal because Russians and Greeks don't mix (they speak different languages and sing different music) and so far the other patriarchs remain in communion with both.

I do think the U.S. government is behind some of the trouble in the Ukraine; they're still fighting Russia. For heaven's sake, why? Our left are angry that it's not Communist anymore and is authoritarian and Christian. Hooray for Putin's Russia. Beats social-justice warrior America. I have a portrait of the Tsar in my living room and yes, I'm Catholic.

The Crimea is Russia; I'm happy for them, getting what they wanted. Arguably so is the eastern Ukraine but I won't push that. Everybody I've known from there, including the Crimea, didn't want to be in a separate country.

P.S. The Ukrainian parish I go to is not very nationalistic. Everybody there I know is like the Rusyns; their families came to America before World War I when there was no nation of the Ukraine and they didn't much care which country their villages belonged to. They were from Austria-Hungary; Galicia. They're second-generation, speaking English, but Ukrainian is their first language and they can switch back to it just like that. The ethnicity is there but not promoted; the church sign says "Eastern Catholic," not Ukrainian, hoping to get non-Ukrainian seekers, who so far aren't forthcoming. Services are 90% English. It's a tightrope: suppress the ethnicity or become an ethnic club and either way the community would be doomed. The parish is doing what it should.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1
(Release build 20190129)
PHP: 7.1.32 Page Time: 0.023s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 2.6442 MB (Peak: 2.7582 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2019-09-23 19:50:53 UTC