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Pochaev Monastery #418773 01/14/19 08:48 PM
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theophan Offline OP
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Christ is in our midst!!

I saw an article on the website of the Moscow Patriarchate that describes a move by the Ukrainian government to take the monastery back and return it to being a museum. Has anyone seen that? I wonder what the reason for that would be. The article says there are 200 monks and 50 novices who live there at this time.

Bob

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: theophan] #418783 01/17/19 07:45 PM
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Dear Bob,

That is absolute MP propaganda. The Pochaiv ("Pochaev" is Russian) Lavra is, in fact, a monastery that has historically belonged to the Kyivan Church. The ones that have turned Churches and Monasteries in Ukraine and Russia into museums have been the former Soviet Union with whom the Moscow Patriarchate worked in close cooperation (as it was obliged to do _ although there were many times in the history of Christianity, including that of the ROC itself, when Christians chose the path of martyrdom rather than work with atheistic regimes).

Both the Pochaiv Lavra and the Kyiv-Pechersky Lavra were, are and will formally become part of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. But the Primate of the UOC has reiterated time and again that NO force will be used to return these ancient Kyivan Shrines back.

And once they are back with their rightful owners, please be assured they will never be "museums." And the St Sophia Cathedral of Kyiv, will also become the Cathedral Seat of the Metropolitan of Kyiv once again. It will one day, we hope, will also become the Seat of the Patriarch of Kyiv and Ukraine. The Moscow Patriarchate will have to get used to the new realities there, even though they are kicking and screaming and even though their agents are working overtime to sow the seeds of disinformation everywhere right now.

As for Pochaiv itself, there is a new Venerable Father by the name of St Amphilokkhy of Pochaiv. He was not only an ethnic Ukrainian, but a Ukrainian patriot who helped heal wounded Ukrainian anti-Soviet guerrillas within the walls of Pochaiv. This is, of course, never mentioned by the MP which only extols him as a great ROC saint.

The unification of all Ukrainian Orthodox (and also groups of ethnic Russian Orthodox) Christians within the Orthodox Church of Ukraine continues as more and more parishes of the MP there declare their allegiance to it. I understand that there are now some Ukrainian Catholics who are opting to become Orthodox within the new Orthodox Church as well - we shall see how it all transpires. Alex

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: theophan] #418784 01/18/19 12:48 AM
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theophan Offline OP
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Christ is in or midst!!

Thanks, Alex. I thought that, if this were true, it would be a reversal of the freedom the Church experienced after the fall of communism. It made no sense to me.

Bob

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: theophan] #418800 01/21/19 12:47 AM
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Three Cents Offline
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I have not been to Pochaiv but have stayed at the Lavra twice. The monks were absolutely MOSPAT, but that was when His Beatitude Met. Volodymyr (Sabodan) was still alive and prior to Euromaidan. The New Ukrainian Church is not recognized by any other Orthodox Church and in fact His Eminence Met. Kallistos (Ware) of the EP spoke of problems with this in Romania.
The Local Churches fear jurisdictions being established by the EP within their canonical territories and would like a Pan-Orthodox Council to address autocephaly, which Crete did not do. It will be interesting to see how this finally is resolved.
Christ Is Among Us! Indeed He Is And Ever Shall Be!
Three Cents

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: theophan] #418809 01/24/19 08:09 PM
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Christ is Baptized! In the River Jordan!

Well, when did other autocephalous Churches and Orthodox patriarchates become established through Pan-Orthodox Councils in recent centuries? I'm asking, not telling. And wasn't the recent Council called by the EP ignored by the MP and its allied Churches? Is the Moscow Patriarchate now the first among equals (although it is highly unlikely it considers itself equal to anyone) within Orthodoxy? For the sake of Orthodoxy, I certainly hope not.

In granting the Tomos of Autocephaly to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, the Ecumenical Patriarch rejected the MP's claims to consider Ukraine its "canonical territory." And Ukrainian Orthodox reject that as well. More and more parishes of the MP in Ukraine are now going over to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine and that process continues and will continue over time. And, in time, the MP will need to accept the new ecclesial reality in Ukraine. Its view of the Russian World or "Russky Mir" which is a political and not a spiritual or ecclesial ideology, is done with respect to Ukraine. World Orthodoxy will also get used to this new reality, later if not sooner, just as it got used to the Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian and, yes, Moscow Patriarchates.

As for Pochaiv, I would like to relate the story of a more recent visit there. The monks there are still very MOSPAT. I was approached by two of them who spoke only in Russian while I spoke to them in Ukrainian (which was fine). They asked me what my church background is and I didn't lie, I told them I am Ukrainian Catholic. They became visibly upset by this and said I was going to go to hell etc. I told them I would let God decide that - just as He will decide their eternal situation. They angrily asked me if I had come to Pochaiv, "like that Josaphat the soul-snatcher" to "convert" them. I could see that this wasn't going to end well, so I wished them well and began to walk away. They continued with their angry discourse and I turned to them to ask them how it is that living in Ukraine and at the Pochaiv Lavra, they couldn't speak two words in Ukrainian to me. I was right - that didn't end well. The sooner that ilk leaves Pochaiv and the Kyiv Caves Lavra, the better.

Alex the Soul-Snatcher

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #418810 01/25/19 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Well, when did other autocephalous Churches and Orthodox patriarchates become established through Pan-Orthodox Councils in recent centuries?


The answer, of course, is none. According to Constantinople, the only truly autocephalous churches are the ones which were ratified at ecumenical councils. That means five churches: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Cyprus. The other autocephalous churches, so they argue, received their autocephaly from Constantinople, pending ecumenical ratification (actually Georgia got its autocephaly from Antioch but the EP apologists are studiously ignoring this). And until said ratification, Constantinople reserves the right to revoke their autocephaly and otherwise intervene in their affairs as she sees fit. This is the problem... leaving aside the issues, historical and canonical, specific to Ukraine, Constantinople is claiming broad powers which the other churches- not just Moscow- dispute. That the Moscow Patriarchate exploits canonical arguments for its own hypocritical and self-serving purposes should not distract from the fact that what Constantinople is saying and doing is loaded with problems. Many Orthodox who were cheerleading the creation of the OCU are now shocked and dismayed by the EP's unilateral move to abolish the Russian Exarchate in Western Europe, but both actions spring from the same kind of thinking which prevails in the Phanar, and which has not been a secret for some years.

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And wasn't the recent Council called by the EP ignored by the MP and its allied Churches?


To say "allied churches," as if they were just doing it because Moscow told them to, is not correct. Antioch specifically abstained for its well-known grievance against Jerusalem, which the EP refused to address at the council.

Quote
Is the Moscow Patriarchate now the first among equals (although it is highly unlikely it considers itself equal to anyone) within Orthodoxy? For the sake of Orthodoxy, I certainly hope not.


Moscow as a "first among equals" would be quite destructive and thankfully it will not be allowed to happen. The problem now is that the EP is claiming to be "First Without Equals" (this is the explicit wording used by Metropolitan Elpidophoros in his text which bears that as its title).

Quote
World Orthodoxy will also get used to this new reality, later if not sooner, just as it got used to the Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian and, yes, Moscow Patriarchates.


The Russkiy Mir ideology is a dead end and there is nothing particularly objectionable about the idea of Ukrainian autocephaly. The problem is the way it is being accomplished. World Orthodoxy can and will accept the Ukrainian autocephalous church, but it cannot accept Constantinople as the supreme mother church, who has the right to found and dissolve churches at will.

You can read my article about this here: https://orthodoxyindialogue.com/201...-of-the-ukrainian-tomos-by-joseph-zheng/

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #418812 01/27/19 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
As for Pochaiv, I would like to relate the story of a more recent visit there. The monks there are still very MOSPAT. I was approached by two of them who spoke only in Russian while I spoke to them in Ukrainian (which was fine). They asked me what my church background is and I didn't lie, I told them I am Ukrainian Catholic. They became visibly upset by this and said I was going to go to hell etc. I told them I would let God decide that - just as He will decide their eternal situation. They angrily asked me if I had come to Pochaiv, "like that Josaphat the soul-snatcher" to "convert" them. I could see that this wasn't going to end well, so I wished them well and began to walk away. They continued with their angry discourse and I turned to them to ask them how it is that living in Ukraine and at the Pochaiv Lavra, they couldn't speak two words in Ukrainian to me. I was right - that didn't end well. The sooner that ilk leaves Pochaiv and the Kyiv Caves Lavra, the better.

Hello Alex,

Visiting the Pochayiv monastery is on my "bucket list", but I am disappointed to read how you were treated during your visit.

Have you read this article and seen this video?: ПОЧАЇВСЬКА ЛАВРА: УПОДІБНЕННЯ СЕКТІ КРЕМЛЯ

I read it using Google Translate and it's sad to read that there is a sign on the premises of the monastery stating that Catholics, Protestants, and unbelievers are not welcome. The sign is shown in the video.

Do the monks need to be reminded that the crowns on the miracle working icon were given by Pope Clement XIV?

There's also this interview with the rector of the monastery: Після повернення П...иметься – настоятель

He is asked about the sign as well as about the time when the monastery was under the care of the Basilians.

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: theophan] #418818 01/29/19 02:42 PM
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I find the entire situation depressing, I have a Friend who is a Monk in the OCA , and like many there is a Russiophile, and he defended the use Russian and even kind of defended the signs telling Catholics and others they would not pray for them. I find this just heartbreaking.

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #418826 01/31/19 09:08 PM
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Dear Swan,

I agree with your overall assessment. I've seen your website and your articles are deeply spiritual reflecting the best traditions of the Christian East. In praying the Rule of the Theotokos, I simply add a few words to each Hail Mary that reflects on the events under consideration (as the Holy New Hieromartyr St Seraphim Zvezdinsky outlined). I was amazed that St Seraphim of Sarov said that the Most Holy Theotokos indicated to him that this Rule of prayer was more important in the life of a Christian than any other prayer to her. I love quoting that to Roman Catholics who think Eastern Christians have poached that prayer from them . . . smile .

All the best,

Alex

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: griego catolico] #418827 01/31/19 09:13 PM
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Dear Griego Amigo!

How wonderful to speak with you again!

Yes, I've read that article. I do think that things will get better with time as people get used to what is a new situation there. Tempers run high nowadays and things can get so overheated that they get out of control. Even I can get out of control - (yes, it is possible, if you don't believe me just ask our Administrator or Father Anthony).

If I can learn to read Russian, the Pochaiv monks can learn some Ukrainian and stop deprecating the language. Do you see how irenical I've become? It is all thanks to the past spiritual direction of John Vernoski!!

Cheers, Alex

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: griego catolico] #418829 01/31/19 10:25 PM
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Found this little article about St Neilos and the monastery of Grottaferrata to be inspirational and an antidote to what ails Pochaev and others. Grottaferrata Think we can all learn.

Last edited by Utroque; 01/31/19 10:26 PM.
Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: theophan] #418830 01/31/19 10:29 PM
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This is where the UGCC Patriarch Josyf the Hieroconfessor would go to pray . . . thank you!

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: theophan] #418839 02/02/19 01:03 AM
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bumbling around the the back of my crafty mind is a notion that *someone* should put Rome to the test on it's First Millennium overtures and appeal to Rome . . .

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: dochawk] #418840 02/02/19 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dochawk
bumbling around the the back of my crafty mind is a notion that *someone* should put Rome to the test on it's First Millennium overtures and appeal to Rome . . .


Bumbling around in my old mind is the question: Why?

Re: Pochaev Monastery [Re: Utroque] #418936 03/01/19 04:27 AM
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Rome has made overtures to the effect that nothing other should be required of the East than was in the first millennium. So is Rome willing to accept *its* first millennium role?

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