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Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: eamon] #418820
01/31/19 04:03 PM
01/31/19 04:03 PM
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San Luis Obispo, CA
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I agree 100%.

Excellent choirs, a good priest and a parish that understands and loves Divine Liturgy is a fantastic outreach.

Practicing the Faith in God's intended way is attractive.

On the other hand, if the parish is full of despondent Latin Mass folks, who pray the rosary and do everything latin-style and who are only there because there isn't a good Latin Mass alternative.....this type of parish will not prosper, as they don't know who they are or why they're there.

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: CCS] #418821
01/31/19 05:03 PM
01/31/19 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CCS
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Originally Posted by RyanOwens


1) The difficulty of receiving a response from an Eparchy on the process of change. I have attempted to contact several Eparchies in the last few months and I will let you all guess how many have responded to me thus far. If you guessed zero, then you are correct. No eparchial office, staff, let alone a Bishop, has responded to my interest at all. This could be for a number of reasons but if, as this thread suggests, Eastern Catholic churches in North America are diminutive in size, then surely there cannot be so much going on at the Eparchy's administrative centre that emails cannot be answered in a timely manner. I am still patient, as I believe that it is of a vocational matter that I should go from the Tiber to the Bosphorous and so am willing to wait and believe that God will deliver me at the right time, but if I were not so sure, then I can assure you all that I would simply have given up by now.


EC bishops don't seem to care when a man expresses an interest in being ordained. Yet there is a constant whining about the "lack of priestly vocations." Go figure. I told my priest one day, after he read a letter from the bishop exhorting men to consider being ordained, "The next time you see his grace, perhaps you could suggest that he stop writing letters and get out here and start ordaining men." The priest nodded his head in agreement.

When was the last time you EVER saw a bishop visit your parish for a regular "shepherding session" to be with the sheep. In 15 years with the Ruthenians at one parish, I never, ever saw that.


I can only speak from a Melkite perspective, but here goes...

TRANSFER: For us, Transfer of Ascription proceeds from within parish life rather than by contacting the respective Bishops in advance. I went to my parish priest after a couple of years of parish membership and he helped me with the process. My Transfer was finalized on our parish Feast Day about 6-7 months after I submitted my packet to the parish secretary.

VOCATIONS AND ORDINATION: Melkite men are called toward ordination from within the community rather than being entirely self-selecting. I suspect that the Seminarians and Readers in my parish spoke first with our parish priest about their interest, but it starts in the parish and proceeds from there to the Eparchy and seminary. We currently have about three Seminarians, four Readers, and one Deacon in our parish who are studying with the goal of ordination to the priesthood. We also have a Ukrainian subdeacon from Canada whose bishop has sent him to serve in our parish while he studies at Catholic U.

BISHOPS VISITING THE FLOCK: Our Bishop visits the parishes of the Eparchy regularly - at least once a year. We will have another shepherding visit from him in a few weeks. We will also have a visit from our Patriarch next year. He visited half the parishes in the Eparchy last year and plans to visit the other half in the coming year.

I don’t know if the issues the two of you are speaking of play out differently in the Ruthenian and Ukrainian churches, but as far as Transfer goes, the recommendation I’ve seen (and this includes from Ruthenians and Ukrainians) is to get involved in parish life and after at least year or more, speak with your priest about transferring.


I know your parish and I visit there from time to time, as circumstances allow, for Saturday Vespers. Fr. Joseph is a marvelous homilist and a wonderful priest.

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: DocT] #418822
01/31/19 05:09 PM
01/31/19 05:09 PM
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Virginia USA
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Originally Posted by DocT
I agree 100%.

Excellent choirs, a good priest and a parish that understands and loves Divine Liturgy is a fantastic outreach.

Practicing the Faith in God's intended way is attractive.

On the other hand, if the parish is full of despondent Latin Mass folks, who pray the rosary and do everything latin-style and who are only there because there isn't a good Latin Mass alternative.....this type of parish will not prosper, as they don't know who they are or why they're there.


My experience with the Ruthenians is that they have NO IDEA who they are. In the 20th century, the Ruthenian Church was bullied by Latin bishops and caved in rather than standing for who they are supposed to be according to the Union of Brest. There are a few hardy souls trying to be Orthodox, but they are not treated kindly, either by the clergy or their fellow parishioners, who don't understand what they are trying to accomplish.

And then there's the whole issue of being "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." How does one do that and remain Orthodox in theology and praxis. I still hear ECC's talk about indulgences and Purgatory, neither of which is Orthodox theologically. I was speaking with someone about being "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" one day after Liturgy and got jumped all over by an indignant parishioner who raised his voice to tell me, quite firmly, 'NO! We are Catholic!" I let it drop rather than start an unprofitable floor fight.

How can you be "in communion" with that with which you do not agree, such as the various doctrines of the Latin Church which were invented after the schism of 1054? The term "in communion" speaks of a unity of mind and thought, and in theological thought, means that we share all doctrines in common. This is precisely why Protestants aren't allowed to partake of the Eucharist, the very symbol of unity - because they don't have unity with our beliefs.

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #418898
02/22/19 02:39 AM
02/22/19 02:39 AM
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Farmington Hills,MI
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I believe Christ the Saviour Seminary in Johnstown has 4 or 5 students

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: volodymyr] #418951
03/05/19 06:23 PM
03/05/19 06:23 PM
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The Wild West
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One of the big problems is lack of control within the EC eparchies in the US. The chancery is nearly 600 miles from our parish. Because of this great distance, bad pastors have free reign to really pull parishes down before any change takes place. My parish had two terrible pastors in a row. That did grave damage.

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: Exegete] #418954
03/06/19 08:01 PM
03/06/19 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Exegete
The chancery is nearly 600 miles from our parish. Because of this great distance, bad pastors have free reign to really pull parishes down before any change takes place. .
Distance is a factor but not an excuse. The bishop should especially know the presbyters, his brother priests (and deacons too), mindful that at his ordination, the presiding hierarch gave him the pastoral staff saying:

"Take the pastoral staff, that you may feed the flock of Christ entrusted to you; and may you be a staff and support to those who are obedient. But lead the disobedient and the wayward to correction in gentleness and to obedience and they shall continue in due submission."

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #418955
03/06/19 09:27 PM
03/06/19 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DocT
Excellent choirs,..
Even better, all the people singing plainchant.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
My experience with the Ruthenians is that they have NO IDEA who they are.
We are the "light under the basket" ; see Did Balamand make us redundant.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
In the 20th century, the Ruthenian Church was bullied by Latin bishops and caved in rather than standing for who they are supposed to be according to the Union of Brest.
Brest got it right but the sub-Carpathian Ruthenians -- in the US the BBC; see Ecclesiology -- came in at the union of Užhorod.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
There are a few hardy souls trying to be Orthodox,
But this is a perfect example of "they have NO IDEA who they are." We are Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics not Orthodox.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
And then there's the whole issue of being "Orthodox in Communion with Rome."
This is a well-intentioned phrase that sows confusion and reaps dissatisfaction..

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
How does one do that and remain Orthodox in theology and praxis.
By being Eastern Catholic in theology and praxis; see below on "Failure of our Church."

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
I still hear ECC's talk about indulgences and Purgatory, neither of which is Orthodox theologically.
They are more Orthodox in concept than Orthodox admit but are a convenient wedge for the pure-Orthodox hammer to pound..

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
How can you be "in communion" with that with which you do not agree, such as the various doctrines of the Latin Church which were invented after the schism of 1054?
This is another example of " a convenient wedge for the pure-Orthodox hammer to pound." I'm "in communion" exactly because I do agree. Again this is also an example of not knowing who we are. What is our main failure as a Church. Saying it again (see link: see end of post) but his time not as a question:
Originally Posted by ajk
A Failure of our Church: To effectively articulate why, as eastern, orthodox Christians we are, and why one should be Catholic – we, who are living (though perhaps rather imperfectly) the desired unity.
So rather than the polemic of "invented" I offer that one can not do better, faced with the ecumenical challenge, than to reflect on the balanced optimism of St Thomas Aquinas concerning faith, reason, and intellectual challenges:
Quote
Since faith rests upon infallible truth, and since the contrary of a truth can never be demonstrated, it is clear that the arguments brought against faith cannot be demonstrations, but are difficulties that can be answered.
Summa Theologiae 1a.1.8
The proper course here is to address and answer difficulties rather than affirm or encourage contradictions.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
The term "in communion" speaks of a unity of mind and thought, and in theological thought, means that we share all doctrines in common.
Ideally yes.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
This is precisely why Protestants aren't allowed to partake of the Eucharist, the very symbol of unity - because they don't have unity with our beliefs.
But by your own characterization of Orthodox issues, neither should the Orthodox.

Last edited by ajk; 03/10/19 05:42 PM.
Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: ajk] #418960
03/08/19 02:36 PM
03/08/19 02:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 52
maryland
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AJK,
Wow, you made some great points there. I think i agree almost entirely.

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #419008
03/17/19 03:14 AM
03/17/19 03:14 AM
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Posts: 23
San Antonio, TX
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
I believe there are 15 seminarians hardly a ghost town. We also recently received an Orthodox priest into our Archeparchy.



Is there a thumbs up or "like" function on this forum - something to express my approval without having to cause offense to anyone?

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: volodymyr] #419013
03/17/19 11:25 PM
03/17/19 11:25 PM
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Northern New Jersey USA
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I am a revert to the Catholic faith from Evangelicalism. I returned to the Church about three years ago. Similar to this forum’s initiator, my father was Byzantine and my mother was Latin. I have been following this forum for about two years. This is my very first post. With that said, I have a question… The Latin Rite has RCIA. Do we Byzantines have anything remotely similar?

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: volodymyr] #419016
03/18/19 12:58 AM
03/18/19 12:58 AM
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Hollidaysburg, PA
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AmericanMix:

Christ is in our midst!!

Welcome to the forum. May your time here help your growth in your relationship with Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Bob
Moderator

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: volodymyr] #419018
03/18/19 01:14 AM
03/18/19 01:14 AM
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Northern New Jersey USA
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Thank you for welcoming me 'aboard', Theophan!


Glory to Jesus Christ!

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: AmericanMix] #419031
03/19/19 01:12 AM
03/19/19 01:12 AM
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Edmonton
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Originally Posted by AmericanMix
I am a revert to the Catholic faith from Evangelicalism. I returned to the Church about three years ago. Similar to this forum’s initiator, my father was Byzantine and my mother was Latin. I have been following this forum for about two years. This is my very first post. With that said, I have a question… The Latin Rite has RCIA. Do we Byzantines have anything remotely similar?


My UGCC has "UCIA" instead of RCIA. I am enrolled in it at the moment. I was raised protestant, was atheist for 12 years, and now this Easter upon completion of UCIA I shall be Christmated into the UGCC.

This is my introductory post to the forum, so I'd like to also say hi to everyone, and also say that I am here because I want to evangelize this beautiful, hidden gem that is Byzantine Catholicism.

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: zaradeptus] #419033
03/19/19 01:54 AM
03/19/19 01:54 AM
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Zaradeptus, Glory to our Lord, God, and Savior, Jesus Christ! I too am a new member of this forum. And even though your journey is not quite complete yet... A BIG welcome to the Eastern Lung of the Church that Christ founded! Thank you for the 'heads up' about the program that your church up in Alberta has. Do you know if your church has any evangelistic/catechetical connections with any of the UGCC (or Melkite or Ruthenian or any EC) churches here in the New York/New Jersey area?

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: ajk] #419225
05/19/19 02:02 PM
05/19/19 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Exegete
The chancery is nearly 600 miles from our parish. Because of this great distance, bad pastors have free reign to really pull parishes down before any change takes place. .
Distance is a factor but not an excuse. The bishop should especially know the presbyters, his brother priests (and deacons too), mindful that at his ordination, the presiding hierarch gave him the pastoral staff saying:

"Take the pastoral staff, that you may feed the flock of Christ entrusted to you; and may you be a staff and support to those who are obedient. But lead the disobedient and the wayward to correction in gentleness and to obedience and they shall continue in due submission."


I would think that a man, with the awesome responsibility of being a bishop and chief shepherd of his flock, would want to be "out among the sheep" so to speak. That is, that he would visit a parish every weekend, see how the Liturgy is conducted, listen to the choir, check out the cantor(s), and offer correction if needed and encouragement.

12 years at my parish and NEVER once (at least to my memory) ever had a visit from the ordinary. And it is only 4 hours from the chancery.

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