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Once Again, the Calendar #419107
03/27/19 08:33 PM
03/27/19 08:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,425
Hollidaysburg, PA
theophan Offline OP
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theophan  Offline OP
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AJK:

Christ is in our midst!!

I just want to set the record straight since I have had to be away for the last three days.

I am not "biased" about the calendar issue. I merely wanted to point out to one poster that quoting a papal bull is itself an inflammatory issue for Eastern Christians. We are not a Catholic board for quite some time--see "Who We Are" in Town Hall.

That said, I am a Latin Catholic but understand the sensitivity of this and many other issues for our Eastern brethren not in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Forgive me, but I have been called away to tend to my mother who is dying in a nursing home 100 miles from me. I have been called away to tend to her business, her health, and her spiritual/mental state. I have been on a roller coaster for the past 35 days and don't even know right now what day of the week this is. After a rather intense half hour discussion with her physician, I don't expect to see her alive again.

Bob

Last edited by theophan; 03/27/19 09:00 PM. Reason: adding word "not"
Re: Once Again, the Calendar [Re: theophan] #419108
03/27/19 08:54 PM
03/27/19 08:54 PM
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Dear Bob,

I am so sorry you are going through this and we all join together in prayer for your mother, for you, our beloved moderator and for your entire family at this terrible time!

I lost my mother three years ago February 23rd.

I am with you in spirit, dear Friend in Christ!

Alex

Re: Once Again, the Calendar [Re: theophan] #419111
03/27/19 09:58 PM
03/27/19 09:58 PM
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Bob, thanks for your reply, especially in such a difficult time. I will pray at the holy Altar for your mom, and you and your family, at tonight's Presanctified liturgy. -- ajk

Re: Once Again, the Calendar [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #419119
03/29/19 03:07 AM
03/29/19 03:07 AM
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This is from a thread of the same title, now locked (Once again, the Calendar)(original):
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
The onus is also on you, Father Deacon, to explain yourself throughout and to see how others might view your way of speaking. What we say is never based on this or that series of words but by the cumulative and comprehensive impact of our discourse in any given discussion. And you could have simply called me out on me describing your pastoral approach as "stinking" by saying you understand why people adhered to the Julian calendar and, were you ever faced with the situation of a parish in which you were serving, perhaps as a future priest, you would indeed be sensitive to their feelings - without ever disparaging them.
I believe I have owned the onus (now for the third time). I quote it again since you may have missed it. It is in the same original locked thread (Once again, the Calendar). The best I can offer is the truth:

Originally Posted by ajk
I end, finally, repeating words I wrote back on 22-JAN-2016 (link) in response to the criticism, raised several times, calling into question my pastoral attitude. Having the Holy Synod's concern for the truth, it is what I think the clergy of old calendar adherents need to tell their faithful:
Originally Posted by ajk
I've commented on this pastoral aspect in previous threads on the calendar. Did the people develop this attitude on their own or were they over the course of years, centuries, taught to reject? If pastoral concerns warrant it I have never said it's automatically unacceptable. Let them observe when they insist but tell them the truth even without all the science:

Dear people, you celebrate Pascha worthily and well but not when the Holy and Great Council of I_Nicaea desired. The way of I_Nicaea is followed instead by what you know as the civil calendar, that is, the calendar and paschal dating that the Pope of Rome gave some time ago. Like it or not, the Pope's calendar adheres to what the Council specified and yours does not. Also know that in following your beloved calendar you preclude, prevent the desire of the Council of I_Nicaea that all Christians observe Pashca together, on the same day, since it would be unfair for us to ask our fellow Christians, who diligently follow the Council's directive, to abandon it as we have done. Accept these word[s] so that "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:32.
[emphasis added in reference to Alex's post]

Deacon Anthony


Re: Once Again, the Calendar [Re: theophan] #419121
03/29/19 12:23 PM
03/29/19 12:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,425
Hollidaysburg, PA
theophan Offline OP
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Christ is in our midst!

Let's put this one to bed for now--please.

I committed to fast from controversy, fruitless arguments, and thoughts of revenge against those who have wronged me in my life. So let me lock this thead and let's all spend more time in self-examination and metanoia.

Asking pardon of anyone I have offended.

Bob

Re: Once Again, the Calendar [Re: theophan] #419122
03/29/19 04:06 PM
03/29/19 04:06 PM
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Virginia!
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John
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John
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Virginia!
I will overrule Moderator Bob and re-open the thread.

HOWEVER, I ask that no one post except Alex and AJK. I am hoping that Alex might actually respond to AJK's points rather than dance around them.

Re: Once Again, the Calendar [Re: theophan] #419123
03/29/19 04:43 PM
03/29/19 04:43 PM
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Dear John,

Thank you for reopening the thread and for putting me on the spot.

In terms of answering Father Deacon's points, I don't see why that would be necessary. Frankly, I found his assessment of old calendarist parishes to be rather offensive and without any real understanding of the cultural background that underlies their continued use of the Old Calendar or of the continued use of the old Paschalion by the vast majority of Orthodoxy. Didn't expect to find that on a forum like this. I told him that I ask for his forgiveness and he replied that that was woefully inadequate. Wow? I'm happy I don't have someone like him as my confessor. But neither does he seem to be able to understand this issue beyond the matter of simple calculation. We are speaking past each other and I don't believe my participation or "dancing" as you put it is appropriate given it is the Great Fast and "dancing" is strictly prohibited.

So I again offer my apologies to Father Deacon and to you, Mr. Administrator, at the same time as I withdraw from this thread and forum. My raising this matter was not to reignite calendar discussions but to make an ecumenical appeal. And what I originally said about adopting the Orthodox paschalion came not from me, but from an interview I read given by Pope Francis.

I know none of this "lets me off the hook" that I've put myself on. I understand that the Gregorian calendar is the one that is correct over the Julian calendar. But that wasnt' and still isn't the point. I just don't see how AJK and perhaps yourself don't see that. If I have, three years ago and now, impugned Father Deacon's integrity over the pastoral matter and was wrong to assume he would impose it on an old calendar parish - then I apologize and withdraw. But his tone has been anything but irenical or conciliatory. And it that is what you feel truly is a conciliatory tone, then I'm sorry too.

I think both AJK and I are both correct here on the calendar issue. Yes, the Gregorian one is the one "of the real world." But that "real world" also includes things like culture small "t" tradition and a strong conviction that the old calendar is the correct liturgical one. Those parishes or Eastern Churches which adhere to the old calendar do not deserve to be categorized as "phyletistic" or the other rather false and uncharitable accusations hurled at them by Father Deacon. Am I still dancing according to some? Then may I suggest that there is a bias going on that includes not only me or anyone who thinks as I do? Perhaps you don't believe I really am thinking but "dancing." There are others who believe I am thinking and reflecting as well as properly defending those who have been or appear to have been maligned for their continued use of the Old Calendar.

I think I've done enough dancing for one lifetime. Given the fact that my heart has lost 80 percent of its function, I will not upset myself by this silly issue that I clearly cannot comprehend or else need to go back to school in order to get much more education to understand. I agree with all that for the sake of peace meaning "leave me alone."

Alex

Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 03/29/19 04:53 PM.
Re: Once Again, the Calendar [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #419124
03/29/19 05:35 PM
03/29/19 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
...In terms of answering Father Deacon's points, ... I told him that I ask for his forgiveness and he replied that that was woefully inadequate. Wow? I'm happy I don't have someone like him as my confessor...
Alex

I do not want to take advantage with a parting shot of Alex's having withdrawn (I think) from the discussion. I must correct, however, the impression he gives in his recounting what was said by me as he states in the quote above. I object to being misrepresented. A good part of the escalating emotion results from misapplying what I say. Here is the actual context of my "woefully inadequate" comment where I explicitly give his words that apply, and that have nothing to do with forgiveness but with, again, putting words in my mouth and even contrary to what I did say:

Originally Posted by ajk
HOWEVER, HOWEVER, you [Alex] state that "when last we spoke about this two or three years ago on this forum, you said that if you came into an old calendar parish like my own, you would oblige it to adopt the Gregorian calendar. " Please tell me/us where I made this statement and be specific. I really must insist that you respond to this with a solid reference not just a recollection. This is something that needs to be addressed.
(link)

Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic

Dear Father Deacon,

Frankly, I don't remember and don't have the ambition to search it out. Perhaps it was something I thought was implied. In any case, if you would NOT impose the Gregorian calendar on a Julian Calendar parish in the way I had intimated, then BRAVO!
...
Alex



Alex,

This is a woefully inadequate response...
(link)

Please note, nothing to do with forgiveness.

Re: Once Again, the Calendar [Re: theophan] #419125
03/29/19 05:57 PM
03/29/19 05:57 PM
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Dear Father Deacon,

I just don't have the juice to deal with this issue any more which is why I withdraw anything I said to you on this, then and now. I'm sorry I resuscitated that and I'm sorry I got myself into this debate, yes, once again. And yes, I ask your forgiveness. Yours and the Administrator's.

Alex

Re: Once Again, the Calendar [Re: theophan] #419126
03/29/19 05:58 PM
03/29/19 05:58 PM
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Don't know how to say it better than that. Perhaps old age has caught me up, don't know.


Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

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