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Re: Which Way Should I Go?: Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxx [Re: ajk] #419246
05/23/19 01:18 AM
05/23/19 01:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 309
Virginia USA
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Irish_Ruthenian Offline
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Irish_Ruthenian  Offline
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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian

... I am struggling also with a serious tendency towards deep anger and resentment towards that body, especially fueled by the rantings of what you would call "Traditionalist Roman Catholics" who seem to take a deep delight (as also do the Traddydox) in seeing people condemned to hell because they aren't Roman Catholic. At first I wasn't sure where this animus was coming from as I went deeper and deeper towards Orthodoxy, but I have come to realize that the Roman Catholic triumphalism, first expressed by Pope Boniface in Unam Sanctum in the 13th century, and clung to desperately by the Traddie Caths, has gotten under my skin. I need to work and pray to rid myself of this.
You are conflating schism and heresy. It is the Orthodox, overall, who question grace in the Catholic Sacraments. Consider Catholic and Orthodox practices regarding admission of each other to reception of Holy Communion and re-baptism or re-chrismation of Catholic converts. Who is more stringent in their interpretation of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation")? Roman doctrine has favored a broader view of THE CHURCH from Novatian (link) to Feeney (link) to VCII. Please read those links.

An general observation about this post (link). I see honest and sincere struggle and concern for the truth but an overall bias based on certain stereotypes and being versed in only one aspect of the issues; this produces, not a chip but a ton of bricks on the shoulder regarding the West, Rome and the Catholic Church.


I hope you do realize that this chip (or ton) on my shoulder is of concern to me or I wouldn't have brought it up. Who am I to judge, condemn, or look down upon anyone, yet I seem to have some sort of innate ability to do just that with people with whom I disagree. A most hypocritical place for a sinner like me to be in.

Your prayers that I divest myself of this attitude through prayer and confession will be appreciated.

Re: Which Way Should I Go?: Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxx [Re: theophan] #419249
05/23/19 06:27 PM
05/23/19 06:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 15
Greece
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silk Offline OP
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silk  Offline OP
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Greece
Dear Theophan and others,

Can you help me to understand the Holy Relics? Hieromonk Gregorios writes as follows;

Quote
"The veneration accorded to holy relics by the Orthodox Church is not to be found in the heretical confessions of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. For their part, Protestants mostly reject any form of honour paid to the saint, while Catholics, since they believe that the divine grace is created, they do not experience the divine grace that abides in holy relics and is communicated to those who venerate them with reverence, and for this reason, although they revere them they do not venerate them. "
Hieromonk Gregorios, The Orthodox Faith, Worship, and Life, p.111.


Is his explanation on Catholic understanding of Holy Relics true? Is it accurate? Or is it somehow misinformed?

Re: Which Way Should I Go?: Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxx [Re: silk] #419252
05/25/19 12:25 AM
05/25/19 12:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 545
Peabody, MA
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Utroque Offline
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Utroque  Offline
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Originally Posted by silk
Dear Theophan and others,

Can you help me to understand the Holy Relics? Hieromonk Gregorios writes as follows;

Quote
"The veneration accorded to holy relics by the Orthodox Church is not to be found in the heretical confessions of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. For their part, Protestants mostly reject any form of honour paid to the saint, while Catholics, since they believe that the divine grace is created, they do not experience the divine grace that abides in holy relics and is communicated to those who venerate them with reverence, and for this reason, although they revere them they do not venerate them. "
Hieromonk Gregorios, The Orthodox Faith, Worship, and Life, p.111.


Is his explanation on Catholic understanding of Holy Relics true? Is it accurate? Or is it somehow misinformed?


While the veneration of holy relics among Catholics of the Latin rite may lack some of the Byzantine grandeur and solemnity of the veneration of the same by those of the Orthodox churches, I, for one, can assure Hieromonk Gregorios that they do, indeed, venerate these relics and that the veneration is just as orthodox and pure in its intention as theirs. What else could explain the miracles that occur from time to time when they are so venerated in the western churches in union with Rome. I can even tell the good Hieromonk about me grandmother, if he'd care to listen. She'd put a knuckle or two to his nonsense if her holy bones were still with us.

Re: Which Way Should I Go?: Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxx [Re: silk] #419254
05/25/19 05:51 AM
05/25/19 05:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 15
Greece
S
silk Offline OP
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silk  Offline OP
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Greece
Dear Utroque,

Thank you for your precious sharing! If only I had not bought into one-sided, misinformed Protestant anti-Catholic polemics, I could have come out of
Sola Scriptura paradigm sooner. So, I determined to not accept these things uncritically without first asking practicing Catholics what they really believe and teach.

Re: Which Way Should I Go?: Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxx [Re: silk] #419317
06/13/19 08:24 PM
06/13/19 08:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 15
Hawthorne, NY, USA
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Anaphora Offline
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Hawthorne, NY, USA
Silk, my screen name here is Anaphora. I have read your post. I have carefully read your post and I am beginning to see the plight that you are in. It is a difficult decision to make. No one can make it for you. You must make it yourself.
I was born into the Roman Catholic Church, received all (most) of its sacraments, married into the Roman Catholic Church. Then, while at University, I was exposed to Eastern Catholicism and began to attend a Byzantine Catholic Church (Ruthenian rite) in my neighborhood. Now, I find myself in two Catholic Churches- one eastern and one western. I have also attended Orthodox liturgies and found them to be based upon the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom with which I knew well. But I was not eligible to receive Eucharist in the Orthodox churches. This made me feel ;most unwelcome. I tried to befriend the Greek Orthodox pastor of the church near me but he regards my church, the Catholic Church, as being in heresy- not theologically but because supreme authority was given to the Bishop of Rome, the Pope as opposed to a sharing of power as is done among Orthodox bishops. Aslo, the doctrine of papal infallibility was another reason why he regarded the Catholic Church as heretical.
I believe that both Churches, Orthodox and Catholic, are true and valid Churches, with true and valid sacraments with very few theological differences but, however, significant differences in tradition and church laws.
High level church men, 1000 years ago, caused the schism that separated these true Churches from each other. The same high level church men, today, must meet together and calculate, with the grace and wisdom of the Holy Spirit, to reunite these holy Churches together as they were 1000 years ago. The unholy schism would then be reversed and heaven would rejoice!
I further believe that in the search for God and search for the truth, there are different paths that ultimately lead to God, truth, and goodness.
Pray, pray hard, Silk. You will find your answer. It will be revealed to you in some way.
Agape, my friend.
Anaphora

Re: Which Way Should I Go?: Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxx [Re: silk] #419350
07/02/19 06:41 PM
07/02/19 06:41 PM
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Paraná, Brazil
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Santiago Tarsicio Offline
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Hello,

Well, personally I am convinced of the historical and theological arguments of Roman Catholicism. It simply does not enter into my head the position of the Orthodox Church. In my opinion, the Catholic Church has the true status of catholicity and orthodoxy.

Also my country was colonized by Portuguese, and later came Italian, Polish, German, Ukrainian, Lebanese, etc. immigrants. Roman Catholicism is very familiar to me, I feel at home naturally.

In addition, in my country, the Orthodox Church does not do missionary work. In Brazil (in some states) there are more Eastern Catholics than Orthodox. The explanation I heard of an Orthodox priest is that the Orthodox Church considers Latin America to be the canonical territory of the Roman Church. The few orthodox parishes that exist are to meet some specific ethnic families, in diaspora, but there is no orthodox mission here, the Orthodox Church "abandoned " Latin America and expects Rome to do the same with Russia and other Orthodox countries. So, in practice, when someone decides to become orthodox, the person becomes a problem, a problem for ecumenical dialogue.

Here you can find the position of the Russian Orthodox Church on this: https://mospat.ru/archive/en/2002/07/ne207011/

Well, about the rest of the thread, I see "triumphalism" as a problem in both churches. But personally, it seems to me that nowadays this problem is greater in the Orthodox Church. In Catholicism this is more marginal, more connected to groups or traditionalists or "progressive". Also, it seems to me that there is more freedom and theological dialogue in Roman Catholicism (on condition of not contradict the dogmas) and also more dialogue with the scientific community.

Perhaps you are at the beginning of the walk and naturally attracted by the aesthetic appeal of traditional Catholic groups, but I would tell you to be more careful. Where there may be plenty of aesthetics, it may lack service and charity. I am a young man, I have much to learn, but it was not in these traditionalist marginal groups that I found spiritual maturity. It was in more central movements after the Second Vatican Council that I was able to have a more integral understanding of Catholic orthodoxy, such as Opus Dei (by St Josemaria Escriva) and Communion and Liberation (by Monsignor Luigi Giussani) - exactly where I least expected it.

Parish life is the reality, it is there where the Church is, I would say that the parish experience is important for spiritual growth, to see real problems, human difficulties, contradictions, etc. Sectarianism is a problem in some groups, and parish life is the remedy, because it shows you the reality.

Re: Which Way Should I Go?: Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxx [Re: silk] #419351
07/02/19 07:13 PM
07/02/19 07:13 PM
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Paraná, Brazil
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Santiago Tarsicio Offline
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Paraná, Brazil
Note: I love Carmelite spirituality, I consider Carmelite theology the most orthodox in the Christian world - and the Carmelites are linked to the Latin rite.
Then, in the Catholic Church, I can have this blessing of being able to move freely through the Latin, Byzantine, Maronite, etc. rite.

Re: Which Way Should I Go?: Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxx [Re: silk] #419353
07/02/19 08:24 PM
07/02/19 08:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 64
Paraná, Brazil
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Santiago Tarsicio Offline
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Santiago Tarsicio  Offline
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Paraná, Brazil
Originally Posted by silk
Dear Theophan and others,

Can you help me to understand the Holy Relics? Hieromonk Gregorios writes as follows;

Quote
"The veneration accorded to holy relics by the Orthodox Church is not to be found in the heretical confessions of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. For their part, Protestants mostly reject any form of honour paid to the saint, while Catholics, since they believe that the divine grace is created, they do not experience the divine grace that abides in holy relics and is communicated to those who venerate them with reverence, and for this reason, although they revere them they do not venerate them. "
Hieromonk Gregorios, The Orthodox Faith, Worship, and Life, p.111.


Is his explanation on Catholic understanding of Holy Relics true? Is it accurate? Or is it somehow misinformed?


I learned from Catholic teachers that the bodies will be resurrected; God distributes divine graces through the holy relics.

In the Summa Theologiae of St. Thomas Aquinas you can find:

"Now it is manifest that we should show honor to the saints of God, as being members of Christ, the children and friends of God, and our intercessors. Wherefore in memory of them we ought to honor any relics of theirs in a fitting manner: principally their bodies, which were temples, and organs of the Holy Ghost dwelling and operating in them, and are destined to be likened to the body of Christ by the glory of the Resurrection. Hence God Himself fittingly honors such relics by working miracles at their presence."

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4025.htm

The Council of Trent goes further and categorically affirms that anyone refusing veneration of the holy relics is in a position of apostasy:

“Also, that the holy bodies of holy martyrs, and of others now living with Christ –which bodies were the living members of Christ, and the temple of the Holy Ghost, and which are by Him to be raised unto eternal life, and to be glorified — are to be venerated by the faithful; through which (bodies) many benefits are bestowed by God on men; so that they who affirm that veneration and honor are not due to the relics of saints; or, that these, and other sacred monuments, are uselessly honored by the faithful; and that the places dedicated to the memories of the saints are in vain visited with the view of obtaining their aid; are wholly to be condemned, as the Church has already long since condemned, and now also condemns them [Denzinger 1821-1822].”

https://zenit.org/articles/relics-of-saints-in-museum/

Re: Which Way Should I Go?: Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxx [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #419354
07/02/19 09:39 PM
07/02/19 09:39 PM
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Paraná, Brazil
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Santiago Tarsicio Offline
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Paraná, Brazil
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian

PS. One of the things which is really fueling my angst in this are certain dogmatic approaches to God which seem to come more from the Roman Courtroom than the Father of the Prodigal. Western theology (RC and Protestant) is very very strong on God as angry, judgmental, condemning, and ready to toss almost everyone into hell forever. I find myself asking "Is this really my Father?" I have read and also experienced through blogs and videos, the Eastern view of God as loving Father whose will is to save all mankind (1 Tim. 2:4) rather than to condemn all mankind. I spent the majority of my life with a cold and distant earthly father whom I could never please. I don't need a heavenly Father like that in the next life. I'm pretty sure that is what is turning me off towards any expressions of Western theology a la Anselm of Canterbury, Augustine, or St. Leonard of Port Maurice, all of whom had a deeply pessimistic anthropology and view of God's dealings with us.

https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/paradiseutopia



I am also not attracted by the pessimism of some Western traditions. This smells like a hussite rancid. I suggest taking a look at the Carmelite tradition: St Teresa of Jesus, St. Thérèse of the Child Jesus, Edith Stein, St. John of the Cross, St. Mary Magdalene of Pazzi, St. Elizabeth of the Trinity - as I said above, I consider the most orthodox of the Christian world. As you can see from the saints mentioned, the feminine presence is striking in the Carmelite tradition, it is a theology that springs from the heart.

St. John of the Cross:

"What more do you want, O soul! And what else do you search for outside, when within yourself you possess your riches, delights, satisfactions, fullness and kingdom – your Beloved whom you desire and seek? Be joyful and gladdened in your interior recollection with Him, for you have Him so close to you. Do not go in pursuit of Him outside yourself. You will only become distracted and wearied thereby, and you shall not find Him, or enjoy Him more securely, or sooner, or more intimately than by seeking Him within you."

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