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Re: Peter, the Rock, the Keys & the Chair [Re: Utroque] #419303
06/06/19 12:52 AM
06/06/19 12:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 308
Virginia USA
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Irish_Ruthenian Offline
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Irish_Ruthenian  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 308
Virginia USA
Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
9. Moreover, that every human creature is to be subject to the Roman pontiff, we declare, we state, we define, and we pronounce to be entirely from the necessity of salvation.

Nuts on that.


Yah, nuts on that! I tend to agree. On the other hand, Unam Sanctam was written at a time when western Europe was totally Catholic and there was a great deal of struggle between church and state, and they absorbed one another like nothing we know in our times, even in post-Soviet Russia. I also feel that the Latin word, "subesse" (to be under) does not have the same connotations as the English, "subject to" as it is often translated. Subesse is a little bit softer, and almost affectionate. But, you'd probably say "nuts to that", too! smile



LOL! Well, not exactly. I think we need a center of unity for the entire Church. My issue is not with having a single focused person who is the center of unity, but rather in the juridical manner in which that office plays out. And from what I have read, this is the Orthodox position also. Seems to me a "First Among Equals" who is truly "A Servant to God's Servant" would not be a bad thing. Having that servant heart, you know.

But.....there are a lot of other fish to fry in this mix also. Kind of sad, really. I remember my godmother coming back from an ecumenical meeting several years ago and telling me that as she listened to the various speakers drone on and on and on, she said she just wanted to stand up and scream "Stop talking and put our Church back together." I think a lot of us feel that way.

Re: Peter, the Rock, the Keys & the Chair [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #419304
06/06/19 01:37 AM
06/06/19 01:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 544
Peabody, MA
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Utroque Offline
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Utroque  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 544
Peabody, MA
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
LOL! Well, not exactly. I think we need a center of unity for the entire Church. My issue is not with having a single focused person who is the center of unity, but rather in the juridical manner in which that office plays out. And from what I have read, this is the Orthodox position also. Seems to me a "First Among Equals" who is truly "A Servant to God's Servant" would not be a bad thing. Having that servant heart, you know.

But.....there are a lot of other fish to fry in this mix also. Kind of sad, really. I remember my godmother coming back from an ecumenical meeting several years ago and telling me that as she listened to the various speakers drone on and on and on, she said she just wanted to stand up and scream "Stop talking and put our Church back together." I think a lot of us feel that way.


Godmothers and grandmothers are always right! For a long time I have thought that the disunity between the western and eastern Apostolic and historically contiguous churches is a bishops problem, and that the burden is on them to "put the Church back together again" so to speak. Why there is no sense of urgency has often puzzled me. There seems to be a complacency that we are all "Unam Sanctam". We need a real Ecumenical Council now, or at least a permanent Synod of east and west to work out all the kinks that divide us! And they should not rest until they are done.

Re: Peter, the Rock, the Keys & the Chair [Re: SouthernTransplant] #419342
06/27/19 05:57 AM
06/27/19 05:57 AM
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Paraná, Brazil
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Santiago Tarsicio Offline
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Santiago Tarsicio  Offline
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I think that the traditional notion of authority / hierarchy differs from the notion we have today after modernity. Explaining the authority of the Pope of Rome is sometimes as difficult as explaining man's authority over the woman in the family.

I think that the traditional notion of hierarchy is almost synonymous with order, in the sense of "being in conformity to divine ratio". A "superior" in the traditional notion is not an ontological category, (a superior is not someone better). There is no autonomy of the superior (or individual autonomy) - a superior can not invent things because he wants.

Thus, in the traditional notion, a superior always has a greater service, the higher he is, the more servant he is.

Thus, in the traditional notion, the satanic phrase "Non Serviam" (I will not serve) implies a refusal to receive and to give orders, it is a refusal of the order, a refusal of the divine ratio.

Re: Peter, the Rock, the Keys & the Chair [Re: SouthernTransplant] #419344
06/27/19 05:52 PM
06/27/19 05:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 64
Paraná, Brazil
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Santiago Tarsicio Offline
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Santiago Tarsicio  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 64
Paraná, Brazil
Benedict XVI in 2010 gave a catechesis on the traditional Christian sense of authority: http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20100526.html

Parts:

"The cultural, political and historical experiences of the recent past, above all the dictatorships in Eastern and Western Europe in the 20th century, have made contemporary man suspicious of this concept. A suspicion which is often expressed in a conviction that it is necessary to eliminate every kind of authority does not come exclusively from man, and is not regulated and controlled by him. But it is precisely in reviewing those regimes which in the last century disseminated terror and death, that we are forcibly reminded that authority, in every circumstance, when it is exercised without reference to the Transcendent, if it neglects the Supreme Authority, which is God, inevitably finishes by turning against man. It is important, therefore, to recognize that human authority is never an end in itself but always and only a means and that, necessarily and in every age, the end is the person, created by God with his own inviolable dignity and called to relate to his Creator, both along the path of his earthly journey and in eternal life; it is an authority exercised in responsibility before God, before the Creator. An authority whose sole purpose is understood to be to serve the true good of the person and to be a glass through which we can see the one and supreme Good, which is God. Not only is it not foreign to man, but on the contrary, it is a precious help on our journey towards a total fulfilment in Christ, towards salvation."

"Every Pastor, therefore, is a means through whom Christ himself loves men: it is through our ministry, dear priests, it is through us that the Lord reaches souls, instructs, guards and guides them. St Augustine, in his Commentary on the Gospel of St John, says: "let it therefore be a commitment of love to feed the flock of the Lord" (cf. 123, 5); this is the supreme rule of conduct for the ministers of God, an unconditional love, like that of the Good Shepherd, full of joy, given to all, attentive to those close to us and solicitous for those who are distant (cf. St Augustine, Discourse 340, 1; Discourse 46, 15), gentle towards the weakest, the little ones, the simple, the sinners, to manifest the infinite mercy of God with the reassuring words of hope (cf. ibid., Epistle, 95, 1)."

"In order to be a priest according to the heart of God (cf. Jer 3: 15) it is necessary that not only the mind, but also the freedom and the will be deeply rooted in living friendship with Christ, a clear awareness of the identity received in Priestly Ordination, an unconditional readiness to lead the flock entrusted to him where the Lord desires and not in the direction which might, apparently, seem easier or more convenient....In fact, no one is really able to feed Christ's flock, unless he lives in profound and true obedience to Christ and the Church, and the docility of the people towards their priests depends on the docility of the priests towards Christ; for this reason the personal and constant encounter with the Lord, profound knowledge of him and the conformation of the individual will to Christ's will is always at the root of the pastoral ministry."

"During the last decades, we have heard the adjective "pastoral" used almost as if it were in opposition to the concept of "hierarchical", and in the same way the idea of "communion" has also been set against it....However, this is a misunderstanding of the meaning of hierarchy, which arose in historical times from abuses of authority and careerism. But these are, in fact, abuses, and have nothing to do with the essential meaning of "hierarchy" itself. Common opinion holds that "hierarchy" is something connected with dominion and therefore cannot correspond to the real sense of the Church, that is unity in the love of Christ. But, as I have said, this is a mistaken interpretation, which has its origins in the abuses of the past, but does not correspond to the real meaning of hierarchy. Let us begin with the word. The word hierarchy is generally said to mean "sacred dominion", yet the real meaning is not this, but rather "sacred origin", that is to say: this authority does not come from man himself, but it has its origins in the sacred, in the Sacrament; so it subjects the person in second place to the vocation, to the mystery of Christ; it makes of the individual a servant of Christ, and only as a servant of Christ can he govern and guide for Christ and with Christ. Therefore he who enters into the Sacred Order of the Sacrament, the "hierarchy", is not an autocrat but he enters into a new bond of obedience to Christ: he is tied to Christ in communion with the other members of the Sacred Order, the Priesthood. Nor can the Pope, reference point for all the Pastors and for the communion of the Church, do what he likes; on the contrary, the Pope is the custodian of obedience to Christ, to his word summed up in the "regula fidei", in the Creed of the Church, and must lead the way in obedience to Christ and to his Church. Thus hierarchy implies a triple bond: in the first place the bond with Christ and with the order given by Our Lord to his Church; then the bond with the other Pastors in the one communion of the Church; and lastly, the bond with the faithful who are entrusted to the individual, in the order of the Church. Therefore it is clear that communion and hierarchy are not contrary to each other, but they influence each other. Together they form one thing (hierarchical communion)."

"Jesus' way of governing was not through dominion, but in the humble and loving service of the Washing of the feet, and the kingship of Christ over the Universe is not an earthly triumph, but reaches its highest point on the wood of the Cross, which becomes a judgement for the world and a point of reference for the exercising of that authority which is the true expression of pastoral charity."

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