The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Vigilante, Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada
5603 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (P H), 81 guests, and 458 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,737
Posts411,934
Members5,603
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: A question for all [Re: byzanTN] #419310 06/08/19 03:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 318
I
Irish_Ruthenian Offline
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 318
Originally Posted by byzanTN
Interestingly enough, I have recently had a family and also a friend tell me they were converting to Orthodoxy from the BCC (the family) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (the individual)/ It doesn't help that the OCA pastor is dynamic and has his stuff together on who he is and what he is doing. The "Ruthenian" mission has fallen apart because the bi-ritual pastor retired. There is no one to replace him. The congregation is having issues with their building which is in need of several costly repairs. Some have gone to the Ukrainian church but the pastor is too influenced by the Latins, it seems. The individual I mentioned told me she is leaving the Byzantine/Latin chaos behind and going to Orthodoxy. She said she is also tired of the confusion and lack of leadership coming from Rome and the bishops. What can I say to any of that?

The forum tries to keep wholesale bickering from breaking out, which is a good thing. Are some moderators too thin skinned and likely to appeal to vague calls for charity when they hear something they don't like? Yes, sometimes certain individuals have a history of doing that. I suspect that many questions that are posted here have already been answered multiple times. So the regulars can tire of hearing the same questions raised over and over. I wonder about the effectiveness of forums in general. Newer methods such as Facebook, texting, and such have replaced traditional forums. The weakness in them, I think, is they are not suited to thorough analysis and answers to questions and are, at best, quite superficial. It is what it is, I suppose, for better or worse.


I listen to Ancient Faith Radio. If this OCA pastor is who I think he is in Tennessee, I am not surprised at all regarding the conversions. He is quite a speaker.

You mention the "Latinized" UCC parish. When I joined my UCC parish, there were Stations of the Cross on the walls. Yeah, they got beat into submission by the Irish bishops of Rome just as the Ruthenians did.

Re: A question for all [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #419311 06/08/19 05:49 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
ajk Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
O Lord!...And my critique of the errors of the Latin Church does not mean that there are not people in it who love Jesus far more than I ever will in my disordered life. It simply means that there are things in it with which the Early Fathers would not agree.
You have already formed the verdict then, the "errors"? You think the Patristic witness is monolithic? It is not. You think the faith of the Church is established by a Patristic synthesis (though it is an important component)? It is not. Purgatory is an innovation but not Toll Houses? You think the Church properly developed doctrine through eight centuries and then stopped? You (and others) limit God in the scope of His plan of salvation -- can't be an Immaculate Conception? Merit is denied but the East is more accommodating to what is considered Pelagian tendencies?

There is still a Ruthenian Recension and Carpathian chant tradition: Liturgicons (in translation) can always be improved. "Teal Terror" caught on but it's an unfortunate misnomer; it was originally dubbed the "Teal Tyrant" on this forum (by me) since it was inflexible and draconian in its selection. It has done a lot of good but could have been done better in keeping with the chant traditionS. It has given us needed improvements (for instance Ressurectional Troparia Tone 3 and 8; the eight tones for the "Our Father" and Alleluia, etc.) and overall availability. The work for improvement and restoration can still continue. As happens too often, extremes catch on and prevail: the difference between the characterizations of "Terror" and "Tyrant" is the difference between flame and light.

I find that selective reading and prejudicial considerations make conclusions easy and straightforward but wrong.


Toll Houses???

Vain Fantasy that a great number of Orthodox reject out of hand.
A great number? Not all?

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Never found in the writings of the Early Fathers.
As I've said and say again, the faith of the Church is not established on Patristic writings although they are a very important witness.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
The Church developed doctrine. It didn't invent new doctrines out of whole cloth.

Have you ever actually listened to an Orthodox priest explain the problems with the Immaculate Conception? No. Of course you haven't.
Here you presume to have knowledge of things that you do not know. A trend?

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
They are many and they go to the heart of our anthropology and soteriology, not to mention they take away from the glory of the Theotokos by making Her unable to sin. Once Her choice to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in holiness is taken away, She becomes an entirely different person than we are, and this creates a real problem when you think of the fact that Jesus gets His human flesh, given for the salvation of the world, from Her. If She is not human and born as we are, then the whole thing runs off the rails.
You apparently have accepted a caricature of the doctrine, perhaps the uncritical acceptance of the biased explanation of that Orthodox priest I didn't consult.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
I won't even TRY to dignify what the bishops of the Ruthenians did to the Liturgy with the Teal Monstrosity.
The Teal book is primarily a book of chant. The scope of the chant there is far beyond what I, as an aspiring cantor, yearned for in the early 80s. It's implementation, like the liturgicon, was heavy-handed but at least it was less arbitrary. I look upon it as a work in progress. In 2007, as a deacon, I requested and accepted inactive status rather than celebrate using the liturgicon. I know and have experienced the issues and the misrepresentations first hand.

Many difficulties do not necessarily add up to a doubt. Question and keep searching and hear out all sides of the issues.


Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3