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Confusion about dissenters. #419481 09/25/19 06:43 PM
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Someone in my Melkite parish has publicly proclaimed several times that they are Melkite ProChoice, they are proud of it, and they will not be silenced.
They have done this via emails and comments on FB in response to a post about a Melkite ProLife effort in a different Eparchy. The pastor is aware of
all of this.

This person is still receiving the Holy Mystery of Holy Eucharist on an ongoing basis.

This confuses me. It is not the protocol I would have expected. Thoughts?

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: AllCatholic] #419482 09/25/19 11:24 PM
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theophan Offline
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Christ is in our midst!

I would first address this to the priest privately. And if that does not clarify the issue, then it might be well to address this to the bishop.

Ultimately, the person receiving the Lord answers to Him at the moment of his death and on the Great Day. I have lots to answer for myself, but approaching the Lord when I am in serious and willful disagreement with what I should be believing and living when I do is something I really REALLY try not to be doing. I answer for me; you answer for you; he answers for him. But I would still take the steps I outlined above.

Bob

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: AllCatholic] #419488 09/26/19 11:10 PM
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There is no doubt that the Church faces a serious crisis, civilization itself is in crisis, we need to preserve and nurture our faith.

In Brazil there are also pro-choice infiltrators affronting the Church and spreading confusion. In my opinion, it is worth to charge and press legitimate pastors to take more energetic actions, first talking privately with the Bishop and then if nothing is resolved, publicly positioning themselves, but skillfully, the aim of the enemies of the church is to silence the voice of believers. But remember that these people will pass, and who will remain in the church are the believers , so "we have time".

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: Santiago Tarsicio] #419504 09/29/19 10:38 PM
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Thank you for your replies. I met with my pastor last week to talk about this situation. I have some compassion for him, but in the end, he allowed this ProChoice woman to receive the Eucharist again today. It looks like I have to take another step.

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: AllCatholic] #419511 09/30/19 09:12 PM
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theophan Offline
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AllCatholic:

Christ is in our midst!!

I would be a little compassionate with your pastor if I were you. He may have addressed this with the person privately to no avail. In the Catholic tradition, a minister of the Eucharist is not allowed--so I have been told--to publicly refuse the Eucharist to anyone who approaches. I addressed this to my pastor about three decades ago when I was asked to be an Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist. I knew many people in my line who were not Catholics because of my work in the community and I asked if I could refuse--since the normal announcements about who should and who should not approach. He told me emphatically that to refuse is NOT permitted, even when we know that the person is not one who should approach.

Best now to address this with your bishop, but you may get the same response.

I shudder when I read the Communion Epistle of St Paul wherein he admonishes us to examine ourselves before we approach. Unfortunately, we have developed an attitude of entitlement in the past half century that would never have occurred before.

Bob

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: AllCatholic] #419617 11/08/19 12:51 PM
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Is it possible your pastor hopes that the Eucharist will help them change their views?

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: Ecaterina] #419618 11/09/19 05:02 PM
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Maybe, but I never heard him express such a view.

Update: I did write to the bishop. He confirmed he received my letter. I have not heard more, but this person has not attended Divine Liturgy for the past three weeks.

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: AllCatholic] #419642 11/17/19 02:25 AM
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Christ is in our midst!!

May I suggest you take a step back? May I suggest that you pray for this person's conversion? It seems to me that in your position there is the danger of judging this person, something which is the Lord's alone to do; not yours, not mine. We can sometimes be so anxious over the Holy Mysteries that we overlook the fact that each of us needs to look at himself and keep watch over his own spiritual relationship's health. What the Lord does or does not do with this person--here or hereafter--is His to decide. In the meantime, we need to do our own repentance for our own faults and failings.

No one is worthy--no matter how hard we try or prepare--to receive the Lord's Most Holy Body and Most Precious Blood. But He accepts us anyway. This is not to say that we ought to approach without reading the Apostle Paul's warning about receiving unworthily.

May I suggest taking a lesson from one of the story's in The Desert Fathers. A brother had sinned and his brother--his monastic cellmate--offered to do penance with him for his sin asking for the Lord's forgiveness. The story finishes by saying the Lord, moved by the love of the brother who shouldered his brother's penance, forgave the one who had sinned. May I suggest that you offer a prayer asking for the Lord to forgive all of us who approach Him unworthily, especially when we are judging our neighbor and not seeing our own sin.

Bob

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: theophan] #419697 12/04/19 05:19 PM
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Hello. Thank you for your reflections. You clearly put some time and thought into sharing them. I am very grateful for your perspectives. They are so valuable and necessary at times. I have heard similar suggestions and cautions from others. The ideas resonate with me, however, I believe they may be limited - at times - in effectiveness. Let me address some of your them. (Beforehand, I want you to know that I share these reflections here after the situation has been resolved, which was not by withholding the Eucharist. I will share what happened in a follow up post where you will see reference to worthy reception of the Eucharist..)

1) I am inspired by the story you described in The Desert Fathers. I have been praying for this person's conversion, as well as the conversion of the priest and all the parishioners who are uneducated, lax, or outright ProAbort about the horrors of abortion, i.e., the killing of human beings in the womb. I assessed the situation and thought it was time to take action in the physical world, much like a parent would, and is expected to, discipline her child, in conjunction with praying for them. If one doesn't like the parent/child analogy, we can use adult/relative or friend, because even as adults, we are called to appropriately judge others' behaviors and take action along with praying for them.Those who fought in religious/Christian wars come to mind. Our Church would not be the same had they only prayed and not taken action. Or Martin Luther King, or those folks who helped the Jews and slaves survive. I imagine you can envision many examples of this.

2) I understand what you say about judging our neighbor and not seeing our own sin. That is always a risk when we judge another person's behavior, but we are called to judge behaviors, as Jesus did many times, and that is as a person or a parent or teacher, etc. Along the way, I checked in with a couple priests in an attempt to ensure that is what I was doing. In the end, action and prayer are not always exclusive.

Again, thank you for taking time to reflect here. I am grateful.

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: AllCatholic] #419698 12/04/19 09:18 PM
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Update: The person of concern has attended Divine Liturgy for a few weeks now and is receiving the Eucharist.

When the killing of human beings in the womb get swept under the rug like this, I find it difficult to participate in other efforts. So, after ten years of service,
I stepped down from all the work I do for the parish (internal and external communications and publicity responsibilities). I do plan to continue to attend Divine Liturgy
and other services. It looks like I will be taking theophan's prayer suggestion exclusively to heart, for all involved, especially the babies killed in the womb
due to this person's ProAbort beliefs/actions.

I compiled some of the Church's/church's views on abortion during this situation. I would like to share them here for others, especially because the first two are taken directly from Melkite literature.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From the Melkite Eparchy's web site, melkite.org:

"Each time we prepare to receive the Holy Mysteries of Christ's spotless Body and precious blood we pray,
in the words of St. John Chrysostom, that they may "be not for our judgment or condemnation." It is impossible
to receive Christ, our Life, in Holy Communion and remain obstinately pro abortion.
Indeed, politicians who,
by their actions (i.e. voting, speeches, etc.), promote abortion cooperate with evil. If they receive Holy Communion
without sincere repentance they do so at the peril of their own souls. Such is cause for great scandal." ~ Former Melkite Bishop John A. Elya


~ https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-...ho-support-pro-abortion-stances-and-laws
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please see the article starting on p. 20 of our Eparchy's Fall 2017 Edition of the Sophia Journal. https://melkite.org/sophia-issue/sophia-fall-2017
Its title is "ROE v. WADE: Abortion Won the Day, but Sooner or Later That Day Will End." Excerpts:

"In the 43 years since Roe v. Wade, there have been 59 million [it's more than 60 million now] abortions. It’s hard even to grasp a number that big. Twenty
years ago, someone told me that, if the names of all those lost babies were inscribed on a wall, like the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, the wall would have to stretch for 50 miles."

"When people say the unborn is 'not a person' or 'not a life' they mean that it has not yet grown or gained abilities that arrive later in life."

"Abortion indisputably ends a human life."

"In time, it’s going to be impossible to deny that abortion is violence against children. Future generations, as they look back, are not necessarily going to go easy on ours."

"In fact, the kind of hatred that people now level at Nazis and slave-owners may well fall upon our era. Future generations can accurately say, 'It’s not like they didn’t know.'
They can say, 'After all, they had sonograms.' They may consider this bloodshed to be a form of genocide. They might judge our generation to be monsters."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The fifth commandment forbids direct and intentional killing as gravely sinful. The murderer and those who cooperate voluntarily in murder commit a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance."
~ [color:#3333FF]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm[/color]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Let all that you do be done in love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)


Please forgive, and point out, any errors. Peace.
.

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: AllCatholic] #419706 12/07/19 01:13 AM
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AllCatholic:

Christ is in our midst!!

I don't want you to think that I wanted to minimize your concern about the situation you witnessed. I also totally agree with the posts you have added subsequently. We can judge behaviors that are evil; it is judging another's MOTIVES that get us in trouble. The person in question may have an unformed conscience or have some other moral defect that only the Lord can see. However, that does not let us off the hook for witnessing to the truth we have received. Remember what the Lord said about those who are lukewarm? He will vomit them out of His Mouth.

I happen to be in support of the priest who refused to distribute the Lord to Joe Biden for his obstinate support of abortion.

Bob

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: theophan] #419721 12/13/19 05:13 PM
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No worries. I understand.

The person of concern informed others that they are no longer a member of the parish. And, as mentioned before, I stepped down after ten years of service with the parish. I left the door open to attend Divine Liturgy.
I am saddened by the situation, but I was sadder when our parish was condoning abortion.

Another idea I had about withholding the Eucharist from folks in grave error. Some pastors believe they could never do that, but it can be likened to giving the person a timeout. Stop what they're doing, let them think about it, study and talk about the church's teachings, and reconsider their beliefs and actions, just like a parent would do with a child who is harming themselves and others around them. By taking no action to clear up the scandal, he ended up losing both of us in some significant way. Mea culpa for any way in which I mishandled things.

In Our Most Holy Theotokos... +

Re: Confusion about dissenters. [Re: AllCatholic] #419723 12/13/19 08:38 PM
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Above, I said, "I was sadder when our parish was condoning abortion." This implies that the parish is no longer supporting abortion.
This implication is wrong. Nothing has changed about the parish, except that the pastor is no longer overtly giving this ProAbort the Eucharist,
but this is only because they left the parish.


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