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InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! #419744 12/19/19 06:53 PM
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I saw this today. It says, translated via google:

Quote
At the pope's request, the Pontifical Biblical Commission, the highest technical ecclesial body in interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, has issued a report on the anthropological vision in the Bible that radically reviews the concept of homosexuality.

"A new and more adequate understanding of the human person imposes a radical reservation on the exclusive appreciation of heterosexual union in favour of a similar acceptance of homosexuality and homosexual unions," can be read in the study commissioned by His Holiness to the Pontifical Biblical Commission on the anthropological vision of the Bible, which includes extensive attention to the subject of homosexuality, the expression of which is conceived as "a legitimate and worthy expression of the human being".

Will 2020 be the year of the great revision of the Catholic conception of homosexuality and homosexual relations? In principle, it doesn't seem to take a special insight to see it probable. Although this report remains that, a report, without any doctrinal or pastoral value until the Pope makes some decision on this matter, the fact adds to dozens of indications over the past year that persistently point in that direction.

The issue is twofold: on the one hand, the very concept of homosexuality which, while in no case would have a moral assessment in itself, does condition the doctrinal response to its specific expressions. Until now, the Catechism of the Catholic Church regards homosexual orientation as "objectively disordered", within the framework of a conception of sex aimed at both reproduction - co-creative cooperation with God on the part of man - and a complementarity that will be an image and figure of Christ's relationship with his Church. If, on the other hand, a "new and more adequate understanding of the human person" is imposed, to quote words from the report, and it is concluded, in the manner of some German bishops, that homosexuality is as 'adequate' as heterosexuality, the conclusions for moral doctrine are potentially seismic.


Is there any truth to this? Is this "source" legit? I don't read or speak Italian.

Re: InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! [Re: DocT] #419745 12/19/19 08:33 PM
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I doubt it. I am posting a link to Rorate Caeli (a trad site). I often disagree with their interpretation of current ecclesiastical affairs but I am sharing the link because it provides background on this document. They note that bits and pieces are being taken out of context of the document that is only available in Italian.

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2019/12/on-pontifical-biblical-commission.html

Re: InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! [Re: Devin1890] #419747 12/19/19 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Devin1890
I doubt it. I am posting a link to Rorate Caeli (a trad site). I often disagree with their interpretation of current ecclesiastical affairs but I am sharing the link because it provides background on this document. They note that bits and pieces are being taken out of context of the document that is only available in Italian.

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2019/12/on-pontifical-biblical-commission.html


I thought I posted a link to the document. If anyone wants to see it, it's quite easy to find on the "infovaticana website.

Is InfoVaticana a legitimate source of information from the Vatican?

I don't think for a second that Pope Francis will sign off on such an abomination. I am disturbed if this is a true story and the Pontifical Biblical Commission actually believes this tripe.

Last edited by DocT; 12/19/19 11:34 PM.
Re: InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! [Re: DocT] #419748 12/20/19 02:07 PM
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Here is an InfoVaticana Piece (Spanish):
https://infovaticana.com/2019/12/20/la-pontificia-comision-biblica-pregunta-que-es-el-hombre/

which appears to be a word for word translation of an article by Edward Pentin of the National Catholic Register linked here:
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pontifical-biblical-commission-asks-what-is-man

The intent of the article is to counter a mistaken interpretation on the permissibility of homosexual acts by a leftist leaning periodical in Italy. The link to the original Italian document by the Biblical commission is contained in the original English article and the Spanish translation along with links to fault interpretations by Italian news sources.. I did not look at any of the Italian information (including the original biblical document because I do not speak Italian and I do not trust Google to translate the document sufficiently). But I do trust Edward Pentin on this matter.

Another article by InfoVaticana also in Spanish has an interview with an official from the CDF. stating there is no openings for homosexual unions. https://infovaticana.com/2019/12/20...una-apertura-a-las-uniones-homosexuales/

I do not know if InfoVaticana is a legitimate news source in total. But I think in this case they got it right.

Re: InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! [Re: DocT] #419749 12/21/19 07:44 PM
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Christ is in our midst!!

While this thread leads me to stray into "areas too great for me," let me make a cautionary comment or two.

First of all, science is not a solid basis for evaluation of mankind. Science is always testing new theories and coming to new conclusions. It's like shifting sand. So to shift the entire understanding that has come to us through Revelation by science and science's latest theories seems to me to be a faulty way to go.

Secondly, we are not in the business of evaluating Scripture, Tradition, or the whole of Revelation in light of this world, which passes so quickly away, by this world's every shifting ideas, insights, studies, or fashions. We are in the business of saving souls and getting them into right relationships with God through Jesus Christ. St. Paul writes that "practicing homosexuals will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Need we say more? Need we add more? Should we not seriously step back and ponder?

My argument to those with this inclination is that we all have some cross, some weakness to combat. We all have something to master. And that is precisely the point. Every religion and every philosophy that has ever come into human culture of any type and anywhere has spoken of the need to control ourselves--to become better by this self-mastery. Unfortunately, since the last half of the 20th century in Western Culture the idea has become "if it feels good, we do it," "there is no shame," "there is no objective behavior that is good for everyone at all times," etc. This latter attitude flies in the face of all the self control ideas ever put forward by religion or philosophy. But it is not a movement forward. In reality, it is the beginning of the end of the country or culture which adopts such an attitude. And we can see parallels in other countries and cultures that are now just part of historical memory.

Bob

Re: InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! [Re: theophan] #419753 12/23/19 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by theophan
Christ is in our midst!!

While this thread leads me to stray into "areas too great for me," let me make a cautionary comment or two.

First of all, science is not a solid basis for evaluation of mankind. Science is always testing new theories and coming to new conclusions. It's like shifting sand. So to shift the entire understanding that has come to us through Revelation by science and science's latest theories seems to me to be a faulty way to go.

Secondly, we are not in the business of evaluating Scripture, Tradition, or the whole of Revelation in light of this world, which passes so quickly away, by this world's every shifting ideas, insights, studies, or fashions. We are in the business of saving souls and getting them into right relationships with God through Jesus Christ. St. Paul writes that "practicing homosexuals will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Need we say more? Need we add more? Should we not seriously step back and ponder?

My argument to those with this inclination is that we all have some cross, some weakness to combat. We all have something to master. And that is precisely the point. Every religion and every philosophy that has ever come into human culture of any type and anywhere has spoken of the need to control ourselves--to become better by this self-mastery. Unfortunately, since the last half of the 20th century in Western Culture the idea has become "if it feels good, we do it," "there is no shame," "there is no objective behavior that is good for everyone at all times," etc. This latter attitude flies in the face of all the self control ideas ever put forward by religion or philosophy. But it is not a movement forward. In reality, it is the beginning of the end of the country or culture which adopts such an attitude. And we can see parallels in other countries and cultures that are now just part of historical memory.

Bob


Yes, we all have to bear, each one of us, our cross. All of us are in need of cultivating virtue and battling the passions, no matter if we are in Holy Orders or secular high school or anywhere in between.

The RC priesthood is supposed to be celibate.

I'm sure a percentage struggle mightily with that, as most of us certainly would. That is to be expected.

But what we're dealing with here isn't at all "normal." Not only are these gay priests not celibate, but they practice their abominable acts with each other AND they recruit from the ranks of adolescent young men in the church. This is a far cry from struggling with sin...this is a wholesale surrender to sin on an institutional level.

And, it's not just a small subset of priests.....it's the majority!

I'm glad the article I posted isn't correct. At the same time, I'm very worried about the church and the clergy. I can't "rest" in or "trust" the church. I'm literally expecting bad news...not good news.

Re: InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! [Re: DocT] #419754 12/23/19 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DocT
And, it's not just a small subset of priests.....it's the majority!


Unless you have some facts to back that up, I find that an astounding assumption and accusation. Be careful.

Re: InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! [Re: Utroque] #419755 12/24/19 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by DocT
And, it's not just a small subset of priests.....it's the majority!


Unless you have some facts to back that up, I find that an astounding assumption and accusation. Be careful.


It's not at all difficult to find "facts", opinions and anecdotes that bear out my assertion. Conservative estimates put the percentage at 25%, while books published by Catholic Priests make the claim that it is 80%.

You can discover this for yourself with some searching, if you care.

There are entire seminaries that are "gay." This is a known fact. For starters, try searching out "Pink Palace St. Mary's Baltimore"

From there you'll no doubt find many articles written by many different people with many different links and citations.

Are you saying that a homosexual priesthood isn't a problem?

Re: InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! [Re: DocT] #419757 12/24/19 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DocT
Are you saying that a homosexual priesthood isn't a problem?


I'm saying you need facts to back up your assertion, and you have not provided any. Conservative estimates do not count, nor do books published by Catholic priests. As I said, "Be careful". Whatever the case, if they are of the Latin tradition, they are all held to a celibate, chaste life.

Re: InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! [Re: Utroque] #419758 12/24/19 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by DocT
Are you saying that a homosexual priesthood isn't a problem?


I'm saying you need facts to back up your assertion, and you have not provided any. Conservative estimates do not count, nor do books published by Catholic priests. As I said, "Be careful". Whatever the case, if they are of the Latin tradition, they are all held to a celibate, chaste life.


OK. I'm pretty sure the church doesn't keep statistics of this nature, so nailing down the exact percentage of practicing homosexuals among the priesthood is difficult.

Of course, there are many sources that claim 25-80% depending on the source. Several priests have put it at 80%. But of course, there is no "expert" or "authoritative" statistic analogous to the WHO or NIH putting out statistics so there is plenty of cover for those who wish to ignore the problem for one reason or another.

I have been told in person from a priest/monastic whom I trust that a "Gay Mafia" exists within the church locally and state-wide. His stories line up with those of others who speak about the prevalence of homosexuality elsewhere in the church.

And then there are the abuse claims....the vast majority of which involve sexually mature young men and priests. There are very, very few actual instances of pedophilia.

And of course the church hides all this.

So, you tell me. How prevalent is homosexuality in the priesthood? How many seminaries are taken over by gays?

Actually, you need not bother. It's pretty obvious that there's a huge problem. It's also equally obvious that it's been covered up for decades. The demand for "Exact statistics" are just another smokescreen, IMO.

I don't trust the Roman Catholic Church. Not one bit.

So, take me to task if you wish. My assertions can be backed up, but perhaps not the the rigid standards of proof you demand. The courts will decide otherwise, regardless of what you say.

Re: InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! [Re: DocT] #419759 12/24/19 06:17 PM
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Christ is in our midst!!

Wait a minute. How did a document about the idea of updating the Church's approach and/or attitude toward homosexuality in general get moved to a discussion about homosexuality in the priesthood of the Latin Catholic Church?

It seems tome that these are two distinctly different topics, though they may be related distantly.

Bob

Re: InfoVaticana---homosexuality!! [Re: DocT] #419761 12/24/19 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by theophan
Christ is in our midst!!

Wait a minute. How did a document about the idea of updating the Church's approach and/or attitude toward homosexuality in general get moved to a discussion about homosexuality in the priesthood of the Latin Catholic Church?

It seems tome that these are two distinctly different topics, though they may be related distantly.

Bob


Yes. They are different. Quite so. The only common thing they share is a reference to homosexuality.

I was responding to the challenge to back up my claim that a majority of priests are practicing homosexuals....which I did as best I could considering the lack of scientifically accepted statistical demographic information.

It seems that this article has been misrepresented in several ways. No surprise there.

I suppose that one must ask the question:

If non-celibacy is a mortal sin for priests (whether hetero or homosexual) and the church has been covering this up for decades---- especially when the priests' failures involve young males in the church (85% plus from the statistics I've seen....and these are based on the abuse claims)----it is reasonable to question an article such as the one posted above?

The fact that the church has been silent, complicit and re-directing claims of abuse for so long indicates that it isn't a small subset of priests and a seminary here or there causing the problems. If that were the case, the righteous priests would toss out the non-celibate ones, and those that groomed young men into gay sex would be gone, would they not?

That's the reason I was wondering about the article. I was worried that it had gotten so bad that the Pontifical Biblical Commission is now condoning homosexuality. Thankfully, the answer to that is "no."

But sadly, we can no longer assume the church will take the correct position on these matters, given the track record and current situation.

I think discussions like this are important and they should be done in broad daylight. The article posted necessitated some discussion.

What it didn't necessitate is an argument over statistics.


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