The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
son of the desert, chchannel, OrbisNonSufficit, SergLts, RusFrog
5656 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 155 guests, and 158 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Byzantine Nebraska
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,877
Posts412,856
Members5,656
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Liturgy when there is no Liturgy #419943 04/01/20 10:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 618
U
Utroque Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
U
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 618
This came to me from Fr. Constantine Sarantidis, pastor of Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, Portland, Maine -


If ... this sacrificial and self-giving love stands at the center of the Church's life, what then are its boundaries, its limits? In this sense one can speak of the whole of Christianity as of an eternal offering of a Divine Liturgy beyond church walls....It means that we must offer the bloodless sacrifice, the sacrifice of self-offering love not only in a specific place, on the one altar of only one temple, but that the whole world, in this sense, becomes the one altar of the one Temple - and that we must offer our hearts under the species of bread and wine, so that they may be transformed into Christ's love, that he may abide in them....that he would give these hearts of ours as food for the world, that he would commune the whole world with these sacrificed hearts of ours, in order that we would be one with him, that we not live but Christ would live in us, incarnate in our flesh. (Maria Skobtsova, quoted in Michael Plekon, Living Icons, pp. 77-78)

Maria Skobtsova was an Orthodox nun in Paris and also a member of the French Resistance during the Second World War. During the Nazi occupation of Paris she saved as many Jews as she could. Eventually she was sent to Ravensbrück concentration camp. She died in the gas chamber on Holy Saturday, March 31st, 1945, when she reportedly took the place of another woman who was scheduled to be executed. She is a saint of the Orthodox Church, canonised by the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 2004.

The words she wrote about Liturgy beyond the walls of a church were a daily reality for her, as she toiled to save lives and to feed and house the poor and persecuted. I pray that the world will never again live through the evil that Nazi Germany created. But today we face another evil, a deadly virus that has already claimed tens of thousands of lives. Yesterday we were given sobering estimates of how many lives could be lost in the United States alone - 100,000 to over 200,000! Horrific numbers.

The thought of Liturgy beyond the walls of a church is often repeated in Orthodox circles. For example, we often speak of the Liturgy after the Liturgy. The Liturgy is not just a worship service. It is a school for prayer and faith and transformed lives. The mystery that takes place at the heart of the Liturgy - the Holy Spirit descending on us and the gifts offered to show the bread to be the Body of Christ and the wine to be the Blood of Christ, using the terminology of St. Basil's Liturgy. It's not a magical transformation that takes place, it is a revealing of what bread and wine can be and were spoken to be by Christ at the Last Supper. Maria Skobtsova took this profound truth to the next level - the level of Liturgy after the Liturgy - by saying that our hearts become Christ's love and food, spiritual food, for the world. This is classic incarnational theology.

Most Orthodox churches in this country and most other countries are not celebrating the Liturgy during these days of pandemic. Some churches livestream the Liturgy without a congregation present, which raises unprecedented questions. We feel the sadness of being deprived. But instead of lamenting the loss of the Liturgy, perhaps we can take this opportunity to see the Liturgy beyond the walls of the church - or, Liturgy when there is no Liturgy. We live under governor's orders to stay at home. It's hard under these conditions to even think of doing any acts of compassion. We cannot even volunteer at places that need volunteers. But we can call and stay in touch with people, especially our elders. We can drop off packages of good will at their doors. We can support local businesses that are able to operate with reduced service. We can share good humour to lift spirits. We can pray for those who are sick and for families who have lost a loved one in this pandemic. We can remind each other to be safe, and check on each other regularly.

And then, when this pandemic is finally under control, we will rush back to our churches to celebrate Liturgy again, with more joy and gratitude than ever. But we will also be free to do, to be, the Liturgy beyond the Liturgy! We are deprived now of the Body and Blood of Christ. We yearn to receive it in our mouths again. Maria Skobtsova tells we also can become the body and blood of Christ. That's the Liturgy after the Liturgy, the Liturgy beyond the walls of a church. As we wait for Liturgy to be celebrated inside our churches again, we have time to think about what we will do for Liturgy after the Liturgy once the pandemic is over. God bless you today and keep you safe and well.
Love and Peace,
FrC

Re: Liturgy when there is no Liturgy [Re: Utroque] #419944 04/02/20 04:05 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,351
Thomas the Seeker Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,351
These pious musings are not helpful.

Never before, in the history of Christianity, have the Hierarchy essentially placed entire continents under the Interdict.

Reflections such as these are only serve to bolster the delusion that this should be accepted if not embraced as some kind of "new normal".

It is NOT normal for churches to lock their doors. It is NOT normal to deny the faithful the Sacraments, especially in times of plague when they need them more than ever. It is NOT normal to make these decisions on the basis of fear, be it fear of insurance liability, fear of civil authorities who are becoming increasingly uncivil, or fear of one's own personal safety.

Jesus commanded Peter to "feed my sheep" and immediately warned him that in so doing, Peter would ultimately be carried off to a place where he did not wish to go.

If our shepherds are unwilling to walk the way of St. Gregory the Great who led a procession through the streets of Rome against the plague, much less to walk the way of Peter the Apostle, then perhaps they should be relegated to being "fishers of the deep".

Re: Liturgy when there is no Liturgy [Re: Utroque] #419946 04/02/20 02:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 618
U
Utroque Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
U
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 618
The Rome of St. Gregory is not the Rome of Pope Francis, nor in the history of Christianity has there ever been the internet, live-streaming or this Forum. Perhaps, then, the real Christian pastor is the Reverend who assembled his congregation in Florida in defiance of civil authorities. In any case, reports have it that the people of Italy were very moved to see the Bishop of Rome, in the rain, live streaming the blessings of the Lord to the City and the World. Nevertheless, there are times when I share the thought that perhaps you are right.

Re: Liturgy when there is no Liturgy [Re: Utroque] #419948 04/02/20 08:22 PM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,187
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,187
Churches have been closed in time of plague. The Church is following what the doctor’s have asked to help contain the virus, a virus that is highly contagious and which people can carry with no symptoms. I do not read this as being embraced as the new normal, but a Cross we must accept for now.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Liturgy when there is no Liturgy [Re: Utroque] #420023 05/14/20 09:05 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 6
N
Nixon Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
N
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 6
As an Orthodox, the live streams have created a small rift. Some feel that that they are fine, while others feel that the intention behind them is good, the typika should also be prayed.

THE EUCHARIST [Re: Utroque] #420091 07/23/20 02:46 AM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 46
J
jvf Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 46
Is it licit in the Byzantine Catholic Church to distribute the Eucharist under both species in a paper cup that you have to pick up and force the Eucharist into your mouth?

Re: THE EUCHARIST [Re: Utroque] #420094 07/23/20 01:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,540
Administrator Offline
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,540
Byzantine Churches of Slavic origin distribute the Eucharist with a spoon. I am aware of several eparchies (dioceses) currently using disposable wooden spoons during the coronavirus pandemic.

Byzantine Churches of Greek/Melkite origin distribute the Eucharist by intinction.

I have no information as to whether certain eparchies use a paper cup.

SANCTITY of the EUCHARIST [Re: Administrator] #420097 07/23/20 02:43 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 46
J
jvf Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 46
The Eparchy of Passaic now uses paper cups to distribute the Eucharist.
I just received it that way last Sunday.
Is this licit under Eastern or Roman Canon law or Catholic Doctrine?

Last edited by jvf; 07/23/20 03:13 PM.
Re: Liturgy when there is no Liturgy [Re: Utroque] #420099 07/23/20 04:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 363
I
Irish_Ruthenian Offline
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 363
quote=Utroque

The words she wrote about Liturgy beyond the walls of a church were a daily reality for her, as she toiled to save lives and to feed and house the poor and persecuted. I pray that the world will never again live through the evil that Nazi Germany created. But today we face another evil, a deadly virus that has already claimed tens of thousands of lives. Yesterday we were given sobering estimates of how many lives could be lost in the United States alone - 100,000 to over 200,000! Horrific numbers.

Have you been keeping abreast with the many posts and notifications that are being given regarding the massive LIES that are being told about this disease? The death figures have been toggled so that hospitals can get more money. Recently a man in Florida who died in a motorcycle crash was listed as a Covid death? This is emblematic of the massive fraud that is going on right now. I have videos in my YouTube history with nurses telling us of the fraudulent numbers she saw posted on her watch. We watched as politicians cynically used the terror created by this so-called "deadly disease" to close our churches while allowing big box stores such as WalMart to stay open. Yet where was the outcry from people? I guess as long as you can go shopping, Jesus doesn't really matter.

Masks do not work. The virus is so small that it passes through all but the N-95 medical grade mask. Yet we are being ordered to wear them by power hungry despots who are orgasmic over the control they have usurped.


The thought of Liturgy beyond the walls of a church is often repeated in Orthodox circles. For example, we often speak of the Liturgy after the Liturgy. The Liturgy is not just a worship service. It is a school for prayer and faith and transformed lives. The mystery that takes place at the heart of the Liturgy - the Holy Spirit descending on us and the gifts offered to show the bread to be the Body of Christ and the wine to be the Blood of Christ, using the terminology of St. Basil's Liturgy. It's not a magical transformation that takes place, it is a revealing of what bread and wine can be and were spoken to be by Christ at the Last Supper. Maria Skobtsova took this profound truth to the next level - the level of Liturgy after the Liturgy - by saying that our hearts become Christ's love and food, spiritual food, for the world. This is classic incarnational theology.

I'm not real sure I like what you said in the bold red.. It sounds to me like you are downplaying the nature of the Eucharist for a more spiritual understanding.The words " it is a revealing of what bread and wine can be " is very problematic to me in that the Eucharist is a reality that we do not see, not something that can be. But perhaps you would explain this a little more to me.

I don't think that incarnational theology was meant to supercede the necessity of the Sacraments. I understand that in a case of Hitlerian tyranny, access to the Sacraments is quite limited, but this faux pandemic is not the same. All Christians everywhere are giving power to this by mindless obedience to that which is a con job. They are listening to "experts" who are promoting the company line to keep their jobs and their cushy government grants. Meanwhile, Bill Gates and his motley crew of vaccination fiends are slobbering over the thought of government enforced vaccinations which will make him the richest man on earth. And the sheep are saying nothing, unlike the president of Tanzania, who had a mango tested for Covid and when the test came back positive, ordered anyone associated with WHO and Bill Gates out of his country. Would that we had some leaders here in America with a spine like his.


Most Orthodox churches in this country and most other countries are not celebrating the Liturgy during these days of pandemic. Some churches livestream the Liturgy without a congregation present, which raises unprecedented questions. We feel the sadness of being deprived. But instead of lamenting the loss of the Liturgy, perhaps we can take this opportunity to see the Liturgy beyond the walls of the church - or, Liturgy when there is no Liturgy. We live under governor's orders to stay at home. It's hard under these conditions to even think of doing any acts of compassion. We cannot even volunteer at places that need volunteers. But we can call and stay in touch with people, especially our elders. We can drop off packages of good will at their doors. We can support local businesses that are able to operate with reduced service. We can share good humour to lift spirits. We can pray for those who are sick and for families who have lost a loved one in this pandemic. We can remind each other to be safe, and check on each other regularly.

It is understandable that in the beginning the hierarchy would move with caution, not knowing that they were being hornswoggled by professional liars. There was a lot of confusion in everyone. But now, after months and months of more and more lies being revealed, one would think it is time for the hierarchy to step up and be like Apostles when they were ordered by the Pharisees to stop preaching Christ. Livestreaming the Liturgy? Why don't I just go back to being a Protestant? It's the same thing - you listen to worship, perhaps chant or sing along, and there are no Sacraments. For me, it is more than lamenting the loss of the Liturgy. It is lamenting that this charade continues to go on because our leaders, both in government and in church are letting it go on. President Trump is no dummy. Either he has not read about all the lies regarding this virus, or he is a willing accomplice in this fraud. I am more and more thinking the latter. If laypeople can discover and expose these lies, then our leaders surely must have knowledge of them. What are they up to? I smell a rat, and so do a lot of other people I have spoken with.

And then, when this pandemic is finally under control, we will rush back to our churches to celebrate Liturgy again, with more joy and gratitude than ever. But we will also be free to do, to be, the Liturgy beyond the Liturgy! We are deprived now of the Body and Blood of Christ. We yearn to receive it in our mouths again. Maria Skobtsova tells we also can become the body and blood of Christ. That's the Liturgy after the Liturgy, the Liturgy beyond the walls of a church. As we wait for Liturgy to be celebrated inside our churches again, we have time to think about what we will do for Liturgy after the Liturgy once the pandemic is over. God bless you today and keep you safe and well.


I've got news for you.....it is never going to be under control. The virus that supposedly causes Covid 19 is the same virus that causes the common cold. That means that if you have had a cold, you have viral antibodies which will show up as a "positive" if you go get tested for Covid 19.

Thank you for your closing wish for safety. I am taking certain precautions which have been recommended by true health professionals instead of the paid hacks of the pro-vaccination crowd: Vitamin D3, Vitamin C with Quercitin, Zinc, hand washing, and plenty of sunshine. I refuse to wear a mask. Let me ask you this question:

Should Christians, who are followers of He who is Truth, and are commanded in the commandments not to lie, support and give credence to a lie once it is discovered? Should we cooperate with liars of any kind, whether theological (aka heretics) or governmental? If so, why? If not, where and when do we start drawing the lines?

Re: Liturgy when there is no Liturgy [Re: Administrator] #420100 07/23/20 05:49 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 46
J
jvf Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 46
Why was my question on THE SANCTITY OF THE EUCHARIST removed from the website?
I'm only asking a very relevant question about the way the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is now distributed.
Who do I ask about getting an answer on this as a Byzantine Catholic for 71 years receiving the Eucharist via spoon from a Chalice?
Thank You

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

Re: Liturgy when there is no Liturgy [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #420102 07/23/20 07:31 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 46
J
jvf Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 46
I agree with everything that you have just said and it is the TRUTH about covid-19 FLU mass hysteria.
I work for a blood center in NY and have been on the front lines with this since February 2020.
I just want to add that all the covid-19 tests in the nose and antigen blood testing have not been approved by the FDA yet.
Why?
I know for a fact that there are many false positive and false negative nose and blood antigen results.
That means that covid-19 statistics ARE NOT ACCURATE!
I have interviewed hundreds of donors who had covid-19 and are now donating their plasma for clinical trials.
Many were Doctors and Nurses who worked in covid-19 units in local NY hospitals.
THEY TOLD ME THAT Hydroxychloroquine (HCL) has been used all along with as you said Vitamin D,C,Zinc and anti viral meds successfully.
This was withheld by the media.

Catholic Bishops (including our own) have capitulated without any resistance whatsoever to the secular government even stopping Easter PASCHA from us.

Last edited by jvf; 07/23/20 08:12 PM.
Re: Liturgy when there is no Liturgy [Re: jvf] #420103 07/23/20 08:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 363
I
Irish_Ruthenian Offline
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by jvf
I agree with everything that you have just said and it is the TRUTH about covid-19 FLU mass hysteria.
I work for a blood center in NY and have been on the front lines with this since February 2020.
I just want to add that all the covid-19 tests in the nose and antigen blood testing have not been approved by the FDA yet.
Why?
I know for a fact that there are many false positive and false negative nose and blood antigen results.
That means that covid-19 statistics ARE NOT ACCURATE!
I have interviewed hundreds of donors who had covid-19 and are now donating their plasma for clinical trials.
Many were Doctors and Nurses who worked in covid-19 units in local NY hospitals.
THEY TOLD ME THAT Hydroxychloroquine (HCL) has been used all along with as you said Vitamin D,C,Zinc and anti viral meds successfully.
This was withheld by the media.

Catholic Bishops (including our own) have capitulated without any resistance whatsoever to the secular government even stopping Easter PASCHA from us.


Thank you for the validation. Sometimes being the only one in a crowd not running with the sheep can make you question your sanity, especially when everyone else is calling you nuts and spitting on you.

Re: Liturgy when there is no Liturgy [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #420104 07/23/20 09:19 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 46
J
jvf Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 46
There are many like us who know the TRUTH about covid-19 FLU mass hysteria.

EVERYTHING HAPPENING NOW IN AMERICA IS ALL ABOUT-- NOV 3-- ESPECIALLY COVID-19 MASS HYSTERIA And the anarchy that's happening in our cities.
PRAY THE ROSARY AND THE PRAYERS OF THE AUXILIUM CHRISTIANORUM DAILY-ALWAYS!

DOMINUS VOBISCUM!
SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

Re: Liturgy when there is no Liturgy [Re: jvf] #420112 07/29/20 02:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,943
Alice Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,943
The mass undermining of the malaria drug is saddening, and that is purely political (because of who mentioned it) and because it undercuts the 'vaccine'.
So many reputable doctors have backed its use, and God knows, if it were me or a loved one at the brink of life or death, why not try it?!
The reason for all this is the money which will be made with a 'vaccine'.
Though you I may not agree completely with him, I suggest anybody interested in learning about the people and corruption behind some of these 'vaccines', look up Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the son of the late Senator, who is an activist for children's health. He is a very good and decent man.
I will just leave by saying that IMHO, as a baby boomer, our entire system today is light years away from honesty and the complete trust my generation had in it when we were children and young adults. We did have the best system in the world at ONE time, unhindered by corruption and greed and dishonesty.
Anyway, we digress from faith and theology...but in light of so much facing our country which is obviously the handiwork of satan, because, hate, anger, passions, divisiveness, chaos. confusion and deceit is evil and not of God, we do need to pray. I fear dark days are ahead.
Lord have mercy!

Re: Liturgy when there is no Liturgy [Re: Utroque] #420115 07/30/20 03:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,621
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,621
Christ is in our midst!!

What is not reported is the success that other countries have had with the use of the malaria drug, a z-pack, and a zinc supplement combo: all across Europe, for example. Yet today the Ohio Board of Pharmacy threatened to revoke the license of any pharmacist who fills a prescription for the malaria drub if it is linked to the virus.

My second cousin works for a large pharmaceutical company and says that the vaccines being rushed to trials is a bad science. Normal vaccine development would/should take a minimum of five years, often ten. The danger is that a vaccine could alter one's immune system and make one vulnerable to the next virus that come along.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3