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Re: Prayers for the conversion of my family [Re: keefa] #420193 08/19/20 12:03 AM
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theophan Offline
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Christ is in our midst!!

keefa:

Please refer to "Decree on Eastern Catholic Churches," paragraphs 27, 28 and 29, and footnotes 54 to 58--published in The Documents of Vatican II, Guild Press, New York, 1966.

Nihil Obstat, Felix F. Cardegna, S.J., S.T.D.; Imprimatur, Lawrence Cardinal Sheehan, Archbishop of Baltimore

The reference is to the special circumstances I mentioned above. It is not a general permission and it requires the permission of the Orthodox clergy one approaches. Further pursuit of this permission in extraordinary circumstances allows the Catholic Christian to do what that clergyman might require, cf. footnote #54.

Re: Prayers for the conversion of my family [Re: theophan] #420194 08/19/20 03:06 AM
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Colin Sheehan Offline OP
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My own family are non practicing and my wife's family is only culturally Catholic. Her parents attend Mass on Sundays and pray the occasional rosary, but this is the extent of their faith (visibly anyways). I don't believe there would be any reprisals since they were never catechized properly in the faith and embrace it as they know how from their upbringing in Mexico. As for going Orthodox, it's more of a last resort sort of thing. As I mentioned in another thread, I don't support and couldn't give intellectual assent to some of what Orthodox Churches teach (contraception being up to a couple to decide-for contracepting purposes, divorce and remarriage up to three times (Adultery), not believing Catholic Sacraments are valid (I was told if I became Orthodox I might have to be baptized again at the Bishop's discretion).

I think my best bet will be to continue attending the Ruthenian Church for Divine Liturgy and bringing my family and just focusing on building our domestic church at home. If I can help my wife see the beauty of Eastern spirituality I think she would wholeheartedly embrace it. It's not as though our current prayer life is where it should be anyways, so I think we are both ready for a change. I just have to convince her to get on board. I received a lot of sound advice on here about taking things slowly. I think because my children are so young that this is why I feel so rushed to get somewhere we can be fully involved. I want my children's experience with Church to be a positive one and I want to build that sense of community for them to be a safe harbor during their adolescent years when most Catholic children abandon the faith. But at the rate we're going, I feel like our being inconsistent and always agitated when it comes to matters of Church is going to do more harm to them then where we choose to attend.

Re: Prayers for the conversion of my family [Re: theophan] #420195 08/19/20 05:02 AM
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keefa Offline
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Originally Posted by keefa

Originally Posted by theophan
The situation of a move not being sinful is something that is on a case by case basis.



According to canon law, there's no situation that would permit a Catholic to become an Orthodox. Doing so is an act of schism.

Nor can you make a profession of faith to the Orthodox Church, without falling into schism.


Originally Posted by theophan

Please refer to "Decree on Eastern Catholic Churches," paragraphs 27, 28 and 29, and footnotes 54 to 58--published in The Documents of Vatican II, Guild Press, New York, 1966.

Nihil Obstat, Felix F. Cardegna, S.J., S.T.D.; Imprimatur, Lawrence Cardinal Sheehan, Archbishop of Baltimore

The reference is to the special circumstances I mentioned above. It is not a general permission and it requires the permission of the Orthodox clergy one approaches. Further pursuit of this permission in extraordinary circumstances allows the Catholic Christian to do what that clergyman might require, cf. footnote #54.


The documents of Vatican II, are at best ambiguous, but the teachings of Vatican II were codified in the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (CCEO) (1990).

CCEO 1990


With regards to footnotes 54 to 58, they don't appear on the Vatican website, so I can't comment on them:
ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM (OE)

If you look at Orientalium Ecclesiarum paragraph 29 it points to communicatio in sacris (participation in things sacred), which is CCEO Canon 671, and relates to OE 26 to 29.

The above Canon 671, should be read in full, but more specifically:

671.2. "If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid."

671.5. "For the cases in ยงยง2, 3 and 4, norms of particular law are to be enacted only after consultation with at least the local competent authority of the non-Catholic Church or ecclesial community concerned."

Note that 671.5 is not referring to an individual Catholic faithful approaching the clergy of a non-Catholic Church, but rather to a particular Catholic Church, a Sui iuris, working on drafting its particular laws in relation to communicatio in sacris, by consulting the local non-Catholic ordinary. As well, EO 29 is referring to the Catholic and non-Catholic hierarchs consulting on communicatio in sacris policies together.


Now going back to 671.2, the words "provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided", Canon 1437 applies.

Canon 1437. "One who refuses subjection to the supreme authority of the Church, or who subject to it refuses communion with the Christian faithful, though legitimately admonished does not obey, is to be punished as a schismatic with a major excommunication."

Thus, this takes me back to my response to the post, as quoted at the top. Because, a profession of faith to the Orthodox Church (becoming Orthodox) necessitates that you reject Communion with the Catholic Church. When Vatican II is read along with Canon Law, it's clear that there's no case where a Catholic is permitted to become an Orthodox, without becoming a schismatic.

Re: Prayers for the conversion of my family [Re: keefa] #420196 08/19/20 04:48 PM
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Colin Sheehan Offline OP
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Schism is a mortal sin. But if one joins the Orthodox without a desire to break Communion with Rome, how could that be sinful (assuming the Orthodox Bishop was willing to welcome such a soul)? For a sin to be mortal it must have knowledge, intent, and consent. If I were in a position where I had to do this the knowledge is there that it would be seen as an act of schism, the consent is there that I would freely choose to join the Orthodox, but the intent would "not" be there. My intent would be to join the Orthodox (in this scenario), not to break communion with Rome. It can not be stated clearly enough that the novus ordo Church does not have the power (or desire) to lead my soul and the souls of my family to Heaven. They simply do not care. Obedience to the Roman pontiff is important but at what cost? My soul? My children's souls? I know I sound a bit dramatic, and I'm not really considering joining the EO anymore (at this time) since I can't give intellectual assent to some of their teachings/positions. But Rome is far from the be all/do all. They are only one part of the Catholic Church, albeit the largest. The Roman Church is no more or less important than any of the other sui juris Churches. And Rome is the only Church who takes umbrage with the Orthodox. I imagine some in the curia would throw a fit if they knew how prevalent inter communion was between EC and EO communities (though this always happens under the table).

Re: Prayers for the conversion of my family [Re: keefa] #420199 08/19/20 09:01 PM
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Colin Sheehan Offline OP
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If one makes this profession of faith in order to have a stable sacramental and spiritual life and provide safe harbor for his family, and he does so out of necessity, then surely this would not be a sin. And even if it was, so long as the intention was pure (to bring spiritual stability to the family) and NOT to leave Rome because *insert reason or scandal*, then this would either not be a sin, or if it was, an Orthodox priest could simply absolve them from it in confession and then either way it's no longer an issue. If I was driven out of necessity to Orthodoxy because the only regular Catholic access I had was at parishes that are not faithfully transmitting the faith, then I fail to see how remaining Orthodox would be an ongoing unforgivable sin.

Re: Prayers for the conversion of my family [Re: keefa] #420202 08/20/20 12:07 AM
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Colin Sheehan Offline OP
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Keefa even accepting that as true, does it really matter? If I (or anyone) genuinely felt like their choices were to keep attending the post conciliar roman church and feel almost certain that your faith would die regardless of what you try to do to save it, or leaving Rome for Orthodoxy (not out of a desire to break with Rome, but out of sheer spiritual survival), then even if this is somehow still a sin that I would be guilty of, I can simply confess it to Christ through the Orthodox priest and be absolved. For a sin to be mortal it requires knowledge, consent, and willful compliance (I know this is wrong but I'm going to do it anyways because I don't care about the consequences). That's different then leaving Christ's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to join Christ's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Orthodox are as much the true Church as Rome is. Apostolic succession and the Sacraments are what Christ uses to make Himself present in His Church. He is only present in Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Union with Rome is indeed God's will, but it is hardly absolutely necessary for salvation.

And another disclaimer, in the event that I am not making this point clearly enough: I have since backed off my position of joining the Orthodox. I cannot at this time give intellectual assent to some of their positions. I will continue studying Eastern Christianity in both its Catholic and Orthodox outlets and in the meantime will be attending the Ruthenian Byzantine Divine Liturgy with my family on Sundays and doing what we can to keep the prayer life alive at home, even if cut off.

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