The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
SergLts, RusFrog, JanSorman, Icons, George, SJ
5653 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 152 guests, and 165 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Byzantine Nebraska
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,865
Posts412,705
Members5,653
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: ajk] #419226 05/19/19 02:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 353
I
Irish_Ruthenian Offline
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 353
Irish Ruthenian: "There are a few hardy souls trying to be Orthodox,"

AJK "But this is a perfect example of "they have NO IDEA who they are." We are Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics not Orthodox."



My spiritual father would highly disagree with you.

History also would highly disagree with you.

When I read the Canons of Brest, I see Rome telling the Orthodox that they can stay Orthodox.

Ruthenianism in America is a Latinized cross-breed. Which is why, I think, that Pope Francis has stated that Uniatism is outdated and needs to be scrapped.

It didn't work.

Last edited by Irish_Ruthenian; 05/19/19 02:09 PM.
Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: zaradeptus] #419229 05/19/19 06:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,607
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,607
zaradeptus:

Christ is Risen!!

Welcome to the forum. Sorry fothe two month delay in welcoming you.

Bob
Moderator

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #419241 05/21/19 06:54 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,984
ajk Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,984
For a fuller context see the source post here.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Irish Ruthenian: "There are a few hardy souls trying to be Orthodox,"

AJK "But this is a perfect example of "they have NO IDEA who they are." We are Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics not Orthodox."



My spiritual father would highly disagree with you.
You and your spiritual father (if he's not Orthodox) should go to your typical Orthodox church, explain this to the priest, and ask him if he will give you Communion.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
History also would highly disagree with you.
Can you be more specific?

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
When I read the Canons of Brest, I see Rome telling the Orthodox that they can stay Orthodox.
Then there need not have been a union.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Ruthenianism in America is a Latinized cross-breed.
It was but that was its via from which it is emerging with successes and failures. I choose to honor the the path of our ancestors, a path that I did not walk and that I do not despise, while confident that it needed to change course, and confident that their faith was genuine. Actually, as I have written here before (as I recall) Latinization stood out in need of correction and that may be a happy fault. What should define "Ruthenianism" if not, at the core, our liturgical expression. We have a Recension and don't follow it in such a way that we embrace it as proclaiming our proper and historical uniqueness. In embracing Orthodoxy, Ruthenians who followed Toth are now and were made to become Russified. Johnstown has fared better under Constantinople but, as I observed and predict, they will become more and more Hellenized. So we, the BCC, are the co-heirs and custodians of a unique liturgical Recension and we squander it piecemeal as exemplified in the 2007 liturgical revisions.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Which is why, I think, that Pope Francis has stated that Uniatism is outdated and needs to be scrapped.

It didn't work.
Well, we're still here, and the Ukrainians and the Melkites and... Uniatism is the present bogyman that is not ecclesiastically correct. It's an historical transient while the real substance is Communion: the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the ONE Body of Christ.

What exactly was it that Pope Francis stated?

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: volodymyr] #420025 05/15/20 08:45 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 6
N
Nixon Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
N
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 6
I have noticed many Protestants have been converting mostly to Latin Rite Catholicism and it is just more readily available and more widely known. Many feel turned off on seeing a more ethnic rooted parish and don't feel a sense of belonging (even though there are still ethnically rooted Latin Rite parishes in the Rustbelt and the great plains). Also, the Latin Rite seems to be a bit more of a comfortable transition for those raised Methodist, Anglican, and Lutheran.

That being said, many of the Melkite, Ukrainian Greek Catholic, Ethiopian Catholic, Syro-Malabar (they are establishing missions across the country), Chaldean and Maronite parishes can be held up by immigrants.

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: Nixon] #420035 05/26/20 07:38 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 2
Deacon Christopher Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 2
Christos Voskres!

I concur that it is principally due to the ubiquity of Roman parishes in comparison to the few Eastern parishes.

I am from the West, but have bi-ritual faculties and serve both a medium-sized Western parish (1,400 families) and a small Ukrainian parish (50 families, perhaps). For many years I taught RCIA classes, and the "closeness" of the Mass to their own liturgical practice made it easier for Lutherans, Methodists, and other mainline Protestants to join the West. Few, if any of them, had any experience of Eastern worship; much less knowledge of the East in general.

Whenever I can get ANYONE (Catholic or Protestant) to Divine Liturgy for the first time -- they are always amazed (sometimes awestruck) by the full immersion of the senses in worship. This, coupled with the typical outpouring of Eastern hospitality (and Ukrainian pastries) always seems to leave a beautiful mark upon them.

In the final analysis, I think we could have many more Eastern converts if we could simply find those looking for another home and get them to visit one of our Temples. Since many of the RCIA candidates come from those engaged to or dating a Catholic, who, (also due to the simple math of the size of our Churches) tend to be Roman.

Fr. Deacon Christopher

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: CCS] #420041 05/31/20 03:11 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 6
N
Nixon Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
N
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 6

[/quote]

I can only speak from a Melkite perspective, but here goes...


BISHOPS VISITING THE FLOCK: Our Bishop visits the parishes of the Eparchy regularly - at least once a year. We will have another shepherding visit from him in a few weeks. We will also have a visit from our Patriarch next year. He visited half the parishes in the Eparchy last year and plans to visit the other half in the coming year.
[/quote]

As an Orthodox, it is very much important that a bishop visits their flock as much as possible.

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: RyanOwens] #420134 08/08/20 01:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 41
A
AllCatholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 41
Quote
There are many Latins, like myself, who are attempting to join.


I have been under the impression that Latins are included in Melkite parish headcounts, but I don't know if they are included in the Melkite Eparchy Registry.

If not, the inconsistency between the numbers could be an impetus for more official transfers.
.

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: Deacon Christopher] #420167 08/15/20 12:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 22
A
Anaphora Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
A
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 22
Fr. Deacon Christopher, I am a Latin rite Catholic who has found the Byzantine Greek Catholic Church (Ruthenian), Eparchy of Passaic, NJ. I was attracted by the Divine Liturgy and the manner of worship where the faithful play an integral part of the Liturgy- in responses, prayer, and song.
I am aware that Latin rite Catholics know little about Eastern Christianity, about the 22 or 23 Eastern Catholic rites because they have never been taught about them. The word "Orthodox" is rarely if ever mentioned from the pulpit. Also, I don't see that Christian unity is mentioned from the Latin pulpit nor are prayers requested for reuniting the holy Apostolic Churches. How can we change this? Is it that the Latin Church is not interested in reconciliation with the Orthodox? As a personal action on my part I have been trying to promote awareness to the term "Holy Theotokos" as the Greek title of the Holy Mother of God as the "God-bearer". Latin rite Catholics should know who the holy Theotokos is. (They know what the Greek term "Kyrie eleison", "Christe eleison" is so why should they not know who the holy Theotokos is?)).
Furthermore, if Latin rite Catholics could relate more closely to Eastern Catholicism and its Orthodox traditions, it would make reconciliation with the Orthodox Church much easier.

Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: Anaphora] #420180 08/17/20 03:58 PM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,186
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,186
Well let’s start with the correct translation of Theotokos. It is not “Mother of God”. That is Mater Theou. It is not “God Bearer”. That is Theophoros. Theotokos literally translated is “Birthgiver of God” or super literally “She who gives birth to God”


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: The Bane of Eastern Christianity in America [Re: Anaphora] #420257 08/27/20 07:20 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 2
Deacon Christopher Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 2
The reason that so few Western Catholics know anything about Eastern Christianity (both Orthodox and Catholic) is primarily related to size, and geographic distribution.

While studying for the priesthood is when I first encountered the Divine Liturgy. Although I had lived in several different states, there weren't Eastern parishes in those areas.

The Eparchy that I serve covers more than half the continental US, 28 states in all, with temples in only 15 of those states. There are around 12,500 Ukrainian Catholics in the eparchy. In my Western archdiocese the neighboring parish has more Catholics than the entire eparchy!

As such, if Roman Catholics never meet Eastern Catholics, or never visit their temples or experience the Divine Liturgy it is often because they simply will not meet such a person, or happen across such a parish.

One can read and study about Eastern praxis and worship, watch a video on your computer, and the like; but that is no substitute for actually attending and having your senses over-run with chant and bells and incense and icons and glistening vestments.

In our country, Catholics are much more likely to encounter Eastern worship in the areas that immigrants from Eastern Europe settled. Along the northeastern seaboard, as well as PA, and OH have greater concentration of Eastern Catholics and parishes. Most of those that exist in CA, AZ, and NV were formed by migration of those Eastern Catholics as either snowbirds or retirees, or both.

I would suggest you invite Catholics that you meet to attend Divine Liturgy with you at your temple. Be a spark and let the Holy Spirit work upon them.

Finally, I don't think knowledge of Eastern Christianity is the real stumbling block to reunification of East and West; I think it is primarily papal supremacy.

Fr. Deacon Christopher

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3