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Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus #420326 09/14/20 10:37 PM
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Colin Sheehan Offline OP
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I don't know if anyone on these forums follows the Orthodox duo known as Ubi Petrus. They have a video on Youtube but are more known for their articles attacking Catholicism (primarily Petrine Supremacy/Universal Jurisdiction). They have been entering debates lately with Catholic apologists (most recent one, I believe, was with the Roman Catholic apologist Eric Ybarra). From what I have seen and read, the Catholic position hasn't put up much in the way of a defense. I am no apologist and wouldn't dream of throwing my hat in the ring with these guys as it would be an exercise in futility for me to do so. But I am a little alarmed that these Catholic apologists seem unable to overcome these Orthodox arguments. Is anyone familiar with this duo who can point me to articles or videos that refute their claims again papal supremacy/universal jurisdiction?

Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Colin Sheehan] #420327 09/14/20 11:15 PM
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theophan Offline
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Christ is in our midst!!

Colin:

Vatican 2 gave us a new way of looking at these things that have lead to so many polemics in the past. Honestly, why people would spend time arguing over this old argument. Vatican 1 was a product of its time--a time when the unity of the Catholic Church was threatened and Pope Pius 9th and others thought this was a way to ensure the Church would not split into schisms.

Today we face militant secularism linked with militant Islam, both hating us with diabolical vehemence, and IMHO if we do not find a way of living with and supporting each other we will all perish in our selfishness. We will either "hang together or hand separately."

My brothers and sisters who are Orthodox Christians supported me at a very difficult time in my life. The spiritual treasury they guard and live so zealously is part of our common patrimony. Arguing over who is the boss or who should have the highest place at the banquet is a waste of time and breath. We should be trying to find ways that we can enter full communion again so that by this we can face the world and the threats we all face with the strength full communion will provide.

Bob

Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Colin Sheehan] #420328 09/15/20 02:58 PM
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theophan Offline
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Christ is in our midst!!

The late Father Robert Taft, a Jesuit who spent his life studying and teaching about the Byzantine liturgical tradition, once said in an interview that all we will ever achieve is "communion." By that he meant that we would somehow have to adjust on all sides for the differences we have all developed by living in isolation since we parted ways. What form that would take he did not specify. What he did say, however, was that no one would put up with the idea that another would have jurisdiction over anything more than his own area. In other words, no Orthodox Christian would be subject to Rome or the Roman Curia--period. And until Rome gets to understand this and work to implement it, there will never be full communion no matter how many ecumenical events and discussions are held.

I posted some time ago my understanding of the Orthodox position. While it caused scandal to some of my Catholic friends, it was an attempt to see through the eyes of my brothers and sisters who are Orthodox Christians. It seemed to me then, and does now, that in order to understand another, one needs to be able to express the other's position on a matter without the bias of one's own position. It takes work, which is what full communion will take from all of us.

Bob

Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Colin Sheehan] #420329 09/15/20 03:28 PM
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Colin Sheehan Offline OP
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I don't disagree with that. I generally hold the branch theory (minus protestantism), even though it is not popular among Catholic or Orthodox circles. I can't help but see these two communions as two sides of the same coin. That said, I have encountered so many different beliefs in the Orthodox churches (with regards to Catholicism), that it's hard to imagine there ever being unity. While some churches are open to ecumenical dialogue, others dismiss Catholics out of hand and say that we are heretics with invalid sacraments. I imagine these hard hearted sorts are the ones who attack papal primacy/supremacy the hardest. I have also gotten the impression, from talking with a number of Orthodox over the last year or two, that much of the anti-catholicism within Orthodoxy tends to come from recent converts to the Orthodox Churches. Whether they were disgruntled former Catholics or just evangelical protestant converts who didn't let go of their anti catholicism, this seems to be a disturbing trend among Orthodox (in the West, anyway).

I don't think everyone is cut out for apologetics. I know my own weaknesses and limitations in that regard. What I find disturbing about the professional Catholic apologists lack of counter arguments in this specific regard is that these dialogues and articles back and forth are getting a lot of publicity and wide circulation. If there are errors being presented, they are spreading farther than they ought to. All this being said, I didn't know if there was anyone on here familiar with this duo who already knew of a source or apologist that does a good job of refuting their attacks.

Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Colin Sheehan] #420343 09/21/20 03:48 PM
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Utroque Offline
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I do not know any better Apologist for the Catholic side than the former Greek Orthodox adherent, James Likoudis. You might want to check out his books on the issue. Of course, many Orthodox dismiss him, but his arguments are compelling. While I'm no champion of polemics, there is no reason for not proclaiming what you feel is justifiably true, and Likoudis does that. I also feel that Pope Francis is leading the Catholic side into a greater understanding of the Orthodox emphasis on synodality, and that's good.

Last edited by Utroque; 09/21/20 03:49 PM.
Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Utroque] #420344 09/21/20 05:40 PM
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Colin Sheehan Offline OP
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Thank you for the heads up on James Likoudis. I will check him out!

Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Colin Sheehan] #420345 09/21/20 08:53 PM
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James Likoudis is rarely mentioned on this board, because he's seen as polemic and not indicative of the direction many Eastern Christians tend to see how reunion should be. He whole heartedly expects Orthodoxy to "submit" to Rome. While he was baptized Greek Orthodox, he considers himself Roman Catholic not Eastern, so take that for what it's worth. Dn. Joseph Pasquella is another ex Orthodox who's Journey Home episode was quite upsetting to many on here, including clergy, regarding how he presented himself and "reunion".

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Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Michael_Thoma] #420346 09/21/20 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
James Likoudis is rarely mentioned on this board, because he's seen as polemic and not indicative of the direction many Eastern Christians tend to see how reunion should be. He whole heartedly expects Orthodoxy to "submit" to Rome. While he was baptized Greek Orthodox, he considers himself Roman Catholic not Eastern, so take that for what it's worth. Dn. Joseph Pasquella is another ex Orthodox who's Journey Home episode was quite upsetting to many on here, including clergy, regarding how he presented himself and "reunion".


I still think his arguments and sources are compelling, and, as an Apologist for the Catholic side, worth reading. But I can understand the ire he raises in Orthodox circles.

Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Colin Sheehan] #420348 09/22/20 07:45 AM
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Colin Sheehan Offline OP
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I never realized Deacon Joseph Pasquella caused such a big stir in Eastern circles. I was in semi-regular contact with him through his facebook posts the last few years (back when I had facebook that is).

Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Utroque] #420352 09/22/20 09:17 PM
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Not just Orthodox circles. Most Eastern Catholics don’t care for his polemics either.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Colin Sheehan] #420354 09/22/20 10:45 PM
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theophan Offline
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Christ is in our midst!!

Like the Holy Forerunner let me cry out in the wilderness. We must find a way to live together. We will either live and grow together or we will be persecuted and destroyed one at a time. In other words, we will either hang together or hang individually.

Father Robert Taft, S.J., of thrice blessed memory wrote that we will be lucky to get full communion where everyone keeps his nose out of everyone else's business, where we don't fight over who is the greatest, where we don't try to dominate each other, where we get used to a little ambiguity over each other's customs--developed over centuries of living apart.

Bob

Last edited by theophan; 09/23/20 01:36 PM. Reason: spelling
Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Colin Sheehan] #420355 09/23/20 02:26 PM
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He is, and shall be!

A hero with whom I shared a good bottle of pinot grigio, may Fr. Robert Taft, S.J. be bathed in Eternal Light! His instincts were correct, and I do think that with an increasingly hostile world at our doorsteps, the separated Apostolic Churches of east and west will find room together at the Lord's Table and leave the rancor of the past behind. Eventually it will be a triumph of substance over style.

Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Utroque] #420356 09/23/20 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Utroque
He is, and shall be!

A hero with whom I shared a good bottle of pinot grigio, may Fr. Robert Taft, S.J. be bathed in Eternal Light! His instincts were correct, and I do think that with an increasingly hostile world at our doorsteps, the separated Apostolic Churches of east and west will find room together at the Lord's Table and leave the rancor of the past behind. Eventually it will be a triumph of substance over style.


You know, I like this, I think that there is much to be said for it. Jesus said "He who is not against us is for us."

The one thing that kinda trips me up here is the writings of the Early Fathers. They were pretty strict about how things should be done (Apostolic Canons, Ecumenical Councils, etc). Would you say that perhaps they were a product of the time in which they lived in which there was no division caused by human frailty and pride?

Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #420357 09/23/20 04:42 PM
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Colin Sheehan Offline OP
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There was division in the earliest Church. In fact, I'd contend that there was division in every age of the Church. The Early Eastern Church was a battleground of heresy and schism coming up over every little thing as the Fathers hammered out the doctrines of the faith and codified things via councils. The Church never really had stability, in my opinion.

Re: Seeking refutation of Ubi Petrus [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #420358 09/24/20 03:52 PM
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Christ is in our midst!!

Quote
. . . the Early Fathers . . . were pretty strict about how things should be done


IR:

I think if you step back and take a look at the first millennium era you will find that the reason that the Fathers were so strict in their writings is that the actual Deposit of Faith, itself, was at stake. There were many who claimed to be the Church and who had all sorts of strange things they were preaching. The Fathers, I believe, saw their task as fighting all these deliberate tangents from the Faith and passing along the correct doctrine needed for a right relationship with Christ. The first seven Ecumenical Councils, for example, were called to hammer out just Who Christ was and what His mission was: what the reason for all this was and is. All the tangents had consequences for getting a right relationship with Christ and, further, had eternal consequences. That was the reason that the Empire brought everyone together in councils--to get everyone on the same page and shut down those who were causing disruption in the Church. Even defining who was in the Church and who was not was a big issue.

I don't, for example, think any Christian today--except the Muslims or maybe Unitarians--believes that Jesus Christ was simply another prophet among many. I don't think any Christian denies the Resurrection. There are many other examples, I am sure.

Issues like the ones most polemicists argue over are small by comparison IMHO.

Bob


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