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Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: Utroque] #420336 09/19/20 05:49 PM
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jvf Offline OP
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Any Catholic that votes for a pro choice political candidate of any party is Enabling abortions and the slaughter
of millions of innocent children to continue and is committing a Mortal Sin by doing so.

If you don't think so that is your moral concern.
END OF STORY.

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: jvf] #420338 09/20/20 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jvf
Abortion murder of innocents inside and even outside their mothers wombs is NOT CONSCIENCE NEGOTIABLE!
THOU SHALL NOT MURDER (kill) IS THE 5TH COMMANDMENT OF GOD!

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!


Adultery is a violation of the Sixth Commandment of God, but it is not criminalized in any state that I know of. Are we all complicit who uphold the state, or who do not fight for the enactment of laws to criminalize this? And so a whole number of morally offenses deeds are not criminalized. Are we enablers of those offensive deeds? Believe me, if Roe vs Wade were overturned tomorrow, and states were enabled to enact legislation to stop abortions, women would find a way to carry out the procedure as they had in the past. Again, there is no law in this country that requires a woman to have an abortion; she is completely free not to do so. There is no coercion or enabling involved. The "pro-choice" and "pro-life" monikers are over-used and almost meaningless. The burden is on us, the faithful and our pastors (as ineffectual as they've become because of scandal) to uphold in ourselves the morality we profess, not the government's.

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: Utroque] #420339 09/20/20 11:22 PM
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"women would find a way to carry out the procedure as they had in the past."

If that is what a women wants to do than that is her choice to do that.
I don't believe that our laws as a Nation under God should facilitate that.
Our laws should be against that just like the child abuse laws.
Abortion is the ultimate "child abuse"!

Many aborted babies come out of their mothers wombs crying.
Some abortionists cut the baby's vocal cord to stop the crying and than also cut the babies spinal cord to murder it, or just rip the baby apart piece by piece,
or just lay it on a table until it dies.
Can you imagine the pain that child is going through while screaming it's lungs out!
Our sick society now has abortion pills that can be gotten over the counter by anyone of any age.

Are these present abortion laws be the kinds of laws that a moral civilized society that has laws that were created bearing in mind the laws of God?

THOU SHALT NOT MURDER-THE 5TH COMMANDMENT

Last edited by jvf; 09/20/20 11:23 PM.
Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: Utroque] #420340 09/20/20 11:25 PM
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jvf Offline OP
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Adultry IS NOT MURDER!

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: jvf] #420341 09/21/20 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jvf
Adultry IS NOT MURDER!


Be that as it is, there is simply no consensus in our society that abortion is murder. If there were, there would be laws that would make it so. I believe it is; you believe it is. We, however, are not a consensus. As you said, women are free to choose under the law whether you and I like it or not. I firmly believe that it is not collaboration to uphold their right to choose nor does it make me or any candidate who does so an abortionist. I understand your righteous indignation, but It's not the end of story. And please give me the right to feel this way and remain a loyal child of the Catholic Church.

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: Utroque] #420342 09/21/20 12:23 PM
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"Be that as it is, there is simply no consensus in our society that abortion is murder"

As a Catholic who cares about what our secular immoral society thinks?
MURDER OF THE "UNBORN" IS MURDER!
THOU SHALT NOT MURDER!

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!.

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: jvf] #420347 09/21/20 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jvf
As a Catholic who cares about what our secular immoral society thinks?


Because what that society thinks is critical to the issue you as a Catholic so passionately care about.

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: jvf] #420349 09/22/20 02:06 PM
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Christ is in our midst!!

At the risk of adding fuel to the fire here, let me see if I can summarize the points.

jvf: What our colleague is saying is that our society has had the abortion question settled by the Supreme Court by Roe v. Wade. It may be bad law; it may be immoral; but it is the current of the land. Please understand that our country has grown far from its roots in the Judeo-Christian heritage. Respect for life has come under fire and that includes respect for the youngest, the oldest, and the most vulnerable (e.g., the disabled). We live in an environment that is increasingly hostile to those of us who are People of Faith, no matter of what stripe. I have watched that slow movement in my lifetime and it scares me. The idea that utility to the greater society is the only measure of a person's worth drives this. You may witness to the opposing view, but it does no good to go up against each other over this matter. Utroque tried to bring that to your attention with his posts.

Utroque: jvf is passionate about the issue of abortion. It is a polarizing issue to almost everyone. His take as a Catholic seems to be that we must become as militant for the unborn as others are for what they term "the right to choose." Thank you for bringing a measure of what a person faces who takes the militant position. What jvf does not see is that there are those in positions of power and authority in society who want to make it impossible for people from his viewpoint to enter the professions: law, pharmacy, medicine, education, etc. I have read statements by politicians and others who have stated this unequivocally.

Bob
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Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: jvf] #420350 09/22/20 03:13 PM
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I will add my voice to Bob's post. The only thing I will add is that most powerful and important tool we have as Christians is prayer. Pray that the Lord God touch hearts to lead all people to understand the value and dignity of life, and to enact legal protections for life from conception until natural death. Pray for the pre-born, that the Lord God lead their mothers to choose life for them. After that, get involved. Yes, participate in rallies and marches. But also do something for a mother who needs help so she can choose life for her children.

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: jvf] #420351 09/22/20 04:46 PM
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What disturbs me most, if polls can be relied on, is the number of Catholic women who do not share the teaching of their Church that abortion is murder. I do not think that rallies and marches will change that, nor will government laws. Our pastors need to find a way which is compelling and forceful. The scandals over the last twenty years have done so much to erode the effectiveness of that pastorate, and that is so sad.

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: jvf] #420353 09/22/20 10:34 PM
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Utroque:

Your point is well put. I think the problem goes deeper. There are too many Catholics who have either a "pick and choose" mentality toward the Faith or have a self-made religion that just happens to put them in a Catholic community. (This latter has some very interesting and strange variations.) Many have that old error that everyone goes to some post-death place called "Heaven," but that there is no consequence to any thought, word, or deed.

Bob

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: jvf] #420359 09/25/20 08:08 PM
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Along this same line, has anyone ever heard that people over a certain age don't have to go to confession because they don't sin anymore? I have heard elderly people say that they have been told this by their parish priest. confused shocked

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: jvf] #420360 09/26/20 06:38 PM
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I want to revisit the concept that one political party is inherently pro-moral and the other is not. I see the rationale being based on the issues of abortion and the rights of various groups' morality. But lets look at thesis, shall we?

Right now, we are in a pandemic where the supposedly richest and most advanced nation has well over 20% of the infections and deaths while having only 4% of the population. And the leader of that supposedly pro-life party openly extols the idea of herd immunity. His favored medical adviser thinks that the more cases the better. Really! Dr. Atlas publicly and proudly said that, and he hasn't taken it back. Hopefully, this concern gets short circuited by a vaccine. But we don't know that for certain. In the meantime, we are pursing a national policy of survival of the fittest. So, this supposedly pro-life policy is consciously practicing Darwinism in real time. We don't have to guess why they are doing it. They have been completely open that, too. It's "prosperity" and political power. Do the math. herd immunity would require a death toll of at lest 2 million people in the rosiest scenario. So, this pro-life party is willing to 2 million plus humans on the altar of Mammon.

And what about economic and environmental policy that pretty much refutes papal encyclicals? And if you think that it is just Pope Francis' supposedly leftist views, then go back and read Rerum Novarum. (Sure, Pope Leo XIII had harsh things to say about socialism. But he was hardly laissez-faire capitalist either). This allegedly pro-life party is pretty emphatic about following the proscriptions of Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand and the libertarian philosophy. I dare anybody to justify how that fits into Judeo-Christian ethics. We have pretty well established that ignoring healthcare needs and pollution affects negatively affect human lives. (Not to mention life in all of its forms). It is hardly being stewards of God's Creation. Yet, this party is identified as pro-life and pro-Christian. Once again, given the choice, they will put it all on the altar of Mammon.

The folks at the GOP are not your friends. They are increasingly funded by eye popping mountains of dollars that are concerned with one thing, and one thing only. Money and how much of it they can pile up. Their marriage of convenience on the social issues isn't worth anything. They put everything else on the scale of Mammon. They will put you on there too. If it suits them, they will do it in a whole lot less time than it took to write this.

If you want to generate a Catholic, or even generally Christian, spiritual awakening, then evangelize. Do not outsource it to politicians. You know. "Do not put your trust in princes, in sons of men in whom there is no salvation."

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: jvf] #420361 09/26/20 09:23 PM
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Andy:

The only problem people of faith have at this time is that there is only one place where they are welcome. One political party in this country has publicly stated that there is no room for those who opposed abortion, who oppose the redefinition of marriage, who make traditional moral decisions. It is written in its current political platform and it is enforced against politicians who identify with that party. There are reports of those who step out of line being forced to either recant or stop identifying with the party label.

I, personally, don't believe that either party is consistent with our Catholic or Orthodox faith positions on all points. The only thing I do know is that to achieve anything at all on the cultural and political plane onw must be part of some group. Sometimes one must hold one's nose and choose the best of two evils. That is reality. It is what our brother, Utroque, tried to pose in his posts above. There is the stated ideal of Christian faith and practice; there is also the reality of what can be accomplished. But we all have the ability to go to our room, close the door, and pound the doors of Heaven with our plea that things change toward the positions we hold so dear.

Bob

Re: CATHOLIC VOTING MORAL RESPONSIBILITY [Re: jvf] #420362 09/27/20 01:43 AM
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Theophan, respect your reasons. But I detect a bias towards one party that I do not think it deserves. I am not trying to be argumentative, although I concede that it can come off that way. So, I will respect the moderator's decision if he wants to screen this out.

I start with an idea that I got from Wisdom of Sirach 13:1-13. Do not deceive yourself about that one party. They will be fine if you achieve your moral goals. They will be equally fine if you fail. They are there for your money and your votes. Period. Don't listen to the words. I will take an honest atheist any day over a smiling charlatan puffing me up about how he values my faith.

I look at the effects of their policies. And we have been following their economic policies for 40 years now. Those policies are not beneficial for 90% of the people in the nation. And those policies make it harder to motivate people choose life. We squeeze the lower economic classes. The pro-life party cuts any safety net program to the limit they can get away with. But they give tax cuts to their rich buddies. If you want to motivate women to give birth, then maybe taking some of the economic impact out of it would help sell the idea. This is done in other capitalist nations. It is no accident that it is easier to have more restrictive abortion policies in Germany. They have a more robust safety net.

I also think that you have to take a good hard look at the electorate you have, not the one you wish you had. Here is a real example and not an anecdote. There was a push about ten years ago for Personhood Laws and/or Referendums. They got one on the ballot in Mississippi in 2011. They thought this would be easy in a very conservative state. It went down with a 58% no vote. I think the the majority of Americans do not like abortion. But they do want the option, just in case. In the end, that will dictate your success or failure on the moral front. And all the politicking and laws and court opinions will have zero effect on that.

The answer you want is not in the political realm. You will never find it there. You have to get people to not want the product. And maybe want a more beneficial product.

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