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Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
] Utroque, can't you see what is happening?

Yes I can, and your response frightens me more than the pandemic.

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Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
] Utroque, can't you see what is happening?

Yes I can, and your response frightens me more than the pandemic.

Wow! So telling you the truth frightens you? You apparently are no student of history. History is filled with legions of men who did everything they could to rule the lives of others, to be the head despot over a country, and if they could, the world. This is the desire of sinful man. It is the opposite of self-giving, self-sacrificing love. I am stunned that you choose to ignore the facts and believe all the lies that are floating about.

The Scamdemic should not frighten you at all. What should frighten you is how easily you have given up on your freedom and especially on access to the life-giving Sacraments of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The Church closed without so much as a whimper and is now hiding in the corner trembling. If this level of courage was held in the past two millenia, we would have no martyrs at all to look up to. They would have traded a little physical safety in this wicked world for eternity with Christ, which is what we appear to be doing.

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Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Wow! So telling you the truth frightens you? You apparently are no student of history.

That's a rather offensive statement. Remember that there are people who will know far more than any of us who come to different conclusions. I'd choose a different method of persuading people.

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Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
] Utroque, can't you see what is happening?

Yes I can, and your response frightens me more than the pandemic.

Wow! So telling you the truth frightens you? You apparently are no student of history. History is filled with legions of men who did everything they could to rule the lives of others, to be the head despot over a country, and if they could, the world. This is the desire of sinful man. It is the opposite of self-giving, self-sacrificing love. I am stunned that you choose to ignore the facts and believe all the lies that are floating about.

The Scamdemic should not frighten you at all. What should frighten you is how easily you have given up on your freedom and especially on access to the life-giving Sacraments of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The Church closed without so much as a whimper and is now hiding in the corner trembling. If this level of courage was held in the past two millenia, we would have no martyrs at all to look up to. They would have traded a little physical safety in this wicked world for eternity with Christ, which is what we appear to be doing.

That you think that your response is the truth frightens me. Advocating and promoting those kinds of conspiracy theories seems to me to be the worse kind of despotism bordering on the hysterical. I know enough history to know that the Martyrs accepted death heroically, but they did not seek it. Welcoming death is not the same as putting yourself in harm's way, nor is there any Christian imperative that requires it. By the way, I'm not a bishop, but I am one of those elderlies at risk and have a few underlying conditions, to boot. And please don't challenge me on history. Enough said - taceo. .

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I just have to jump in. If I am over the line, then I invite the moderator to summarily chuck it. If it is too much of a rant, feel free to delete it and chastise me. I make no claim of speaking from the Spirit. This is simply my personal, and humanly flawed view. And I am no stranger to being the fool.

I am appalled at what I see some people writing here. There is a justifiable concern about rights. But I see a conservatism, both religious and political, that is devoid of responsibility to the society around it. I am sorry that the virus isn't deadly enough for some people's tastes. I really do not know how they ignore ERs and ICUs that rapidly get filled up to their capacity, and frequently over capacity to the point that patients get sent out-of-state. That is not your normal flu season. Don't crow about not enough deaths to make it worthwhile. It is the hard work of doctors and nurses and scientists that have resulted in the success rate we have, not any impotence of the COVID. And even with the medical marvels, we still have hospitals with morgue trucks outside. Do we have to wait until we're pressing Hormel meat trucks into service? Keep operating those medical units at over capacity for long enough, and you will not have the same medical success rates.

This is a mentality that has resulted in our nation, supposedly the most advanced, in having a wildly disproportionate amount of cases and deaths as a proportion of our population. Personally, when we have more deaths than India, a nation with three times the population, something has gone wrong. That does not scream "we care about our fellow man". What it does scream is "I don't care as long as it doesn't affect me or mine". It also comes accross as " Who cares, as long as it is the old and infirm". As if we do not owe a moral duty to the old and infirm or anybody but ourselves. Do we really offer a gospel that only blesses those in the Church? I see poeple that are so wrapped up in ideology that they cannot make practical decisions. I will borrow a statement from my Evangelical days. They are so heavely minded they are no earthly good.

There are many that lament the rise of atheism. I have to be honest, I am repulsed by some of these attitudes. When I speak with those that are non-churched, this gets thrown in my face. I can't answer it because, frankly, there is no acceptable answer to it. I cannot bring myself to defend the undefensable. It forces me to conclude that the atheism and agnosticism are on the rise because they have the very best of evangelists. Christians. This mindset is digging the Church into a hole. Please, stop digging!

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I don't find anything offensive in Andy's post.

On COVID I have a number of questions that have never really been answered. Sweden has not had a lock down the way New York state has. Masks are optional, schools were never closed, and people generally went about their normal lives. They have had far fewer deaths per capita than New York state. Brazil is interesting since its states with harsher mandates also had more deaths per capita than their states with lesser or no restrictions. Fauci and the CDC once said masks were useless. But then they changed. Where is their science? Why the change. My point is not to reject the usefulness of masks and distancing, but to seek answers for unanswered questions.

As to Andy's comment about "enough deaths to make it worthwhile", I don't think that's it. Political leaders certainly need to consider science, but there are other factors, too. Endless lock downs where people do not work deprive them of the income they need to eat and pay their mortgage. Things like cancer diagnosis and treatment were postponed as "non-essential" - and the cancer and other things progressed. Drug abuse, spousal and child abuse, and other social problems increased quite a bit. Suicide is up, too. My point here is that preventing the spread of a disease is vitally important, but it is not the only thing to be considered. The doctors focusing on COVID very well might lose site of other issues that need to be addressed.

Regarding masks, I don't understand the details they don't really talk about. The CDC and other organizations state that a cloth mask should be used only when a better mask is not available, and never for health care workers. And, if you do use a cloth mask, it should be washed daily. There are several studies that conclude that the average person that uses a cloth mask (such as a scarf) seldom or never washes his mask.

As to lock downs and mask mandates, there is only so much the government can do. The average person who followed the lock down has long had cabin fever and will not stay isolated long term. And the recommendations to wear masks need to be realistic. When around other people outside your home - yes. When in the car by yourself or walking around the lake - no. I remember seeing an order from some government agency in the Midwest that required employees participating in a zoom call from home to were a mask (to support the idea). Rather silly.

Going forward, it looks like the very best thing is for those most at risk (older people and those with health issues) should isolate as much as possible. Masks in appropriate situations. And I hope the promised vaccine works and works well!

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Originally Posted by Andy Makar
I just have to jump in. If I am over the line, then I invite the moderator to summarily chuck it. If it is too much of a rant, feel free to delete it and chastise me. I make no claim of speaking from the Spirit. This is simply my personal, and humanly flawed view. And I am no stranger to being the fool.

I am appalled at what I see some people writing here. There is a justifiable concern about rights. But I see a conservatism, both religious and political, that is devoid of responsibility to the society around it. I am sorry that the virus isn't deadly enough for some people's tastes. I really do not know how they ignore ERs and ICUs that rapidly get filled up to their capacity, and frequently over capacity to the point that patients get sent out-of-state. That is not your normal flu season. Don't crow about not enough deaths to make it worthwhile. It is the hard work of doctors and nurses and scientists that have resulted in the success rate we have, not any impotence of the COVID. And even with the medical marvels, we still have hospitals with morgue trucks outside. Do we have to wait until we're pressing Hormel meat trucks into service? Keep operating those medical units at over capacity for long enough, and you will not have the same medical success rates.

This is a mentality that has resulted in our nation, supposedly the most advanced, in having a wildly disproportionate amount of cases and deaths as a proportion of our population. Personally, when we have more deaths than India, a nation with three times the population, something has gone wrong. That does not scream "we care about our fellow man". What it does scream is "I don't care as long as it doesn't affect me or mine". It also comes accross as " Who cares, as long as it is the old and infirm". As if we do not owe a moral duty to the old and infirm or anybody but ourselves. Do we really offer a gospel that only blesses those in the Church? I see poeple that are so wrapped up in ideology that they cannot make practical decisions. I will borrow a statement from my Evangelical days. They are so heavely minded they are no earthly good.

There are many that lament the rise of atheism. I have to be honest, I am repulsed by some of these attitudes. When I speak with those that are non-churched, this gets thrown in my face. I can't answer it because, frankly, there is no acceptable answer to it. I cannot bring myself to defend the undefensable. It forces me to conclude that the atheism and agnosticism are on the rise because they have the very best of evangelists. Christians. This mindset is digging the Church into a hole. Please, stop digging!

There is no possible way you could say what you have said and have done any serious research into what is going on. NONE!! This thing has been a crock since Day One. The lies have been enormous. The CDC admits pumping up the death figures by reporting flu and pneumonia deaths as Covid. Hospitals have been caught red-handed reporting non-Covid deaths as Covid deaths because they get a bucketful of money from the federal government for treating Covid patients. Not so much for ordinary deaths. There are three cures out there now. WHERE is the media? If they really cared about people the way they carry on that they do, they would be promoting stories about the 100% cure rate that doctors have experienced with hydroxycloroquine, used safely for 70 years and FDA approved, and inhaled cortical steroids. The consumption of Vitamin C, Zinc, Selenium, and other supplements enhance the immune system, which is capable in most people to take care of the virus with little effect.

I have known three people who caught the virus. All got over it with little effect. The death rate from this bug is about the same as the flu - .0001% of all people infected. In other words, if you get it, you will have a 99.9% chance of surviving and moving on with your life.

Politics? Excuse me but we didn't start the game. The Democrats did with their lies about President Trump and how he is personally responsible for 200,000 (again, a FALSE NUMBER!!!) of deaths. Now that the media has crowned Joe Biden as president, a strange thing happened. CNN used to have a chart on the screen showing daily Covid infections and deaths. Now that Joe is in (according to them) that chart magically disappeared. And if they put him in office, I guarantee you by Spring of next year you won't find a Covid virus alive on this planet. And the Democrats will crow about their full responsibility for this wonderful feat.

And finally, John, Administrator, I HOPE TO GOD there is no vaccine and certainly no mandatory vaccination. What are you thinking, sir??? Good quality vaccines take 5 - 10 years of testing to be sure they are effective and safe. This crap hasn't been worked with for even a year and you are going to trust this in your body??? Pfizer has already made billions - BILLIONS - on the first batch and are licking their chops in anticipation of the next batch of millions. It's not about curing people. It's about making a buck. That's why the government and media are stone cold silent about the natural cures and preventatives that are out there and work. They are OWNED by Big Pharma.

Please, guys, for the love of God DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!! This is not about our health. A government that protects Big Pharma from lawsuits does not have your health at heart. 490,000 children in India were paralyzed between 2000 and 2017., The Inidan government has banned Bill Gates from darkening their doors ever again, unless it is to get him into court for all the damage he has done.

Yes, there is a virus, but sociopaths in government and business have milked this for everything it is worth, making it in to something it is not.

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What sources do you rely on for your information? Please stop relying on these misleading and often lying sources. They are no more valid than televangelists and fad-product salesman.


The Bill Gates conspiracy theories are all nonsense.

He's not banned in India at all, the Foundation works to reduce poverty and provide access to healthcare in India to this day.

Source: Am of Indian Origin.

Also:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/gates-org-kicked-out-of-india/
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-gates-india-idUSKBN22V27F
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-gates-coronavirus-vaccine-conspiracy_n_5eb9ab7ac5b69358ef8a9803
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...-for-poor-india-health-985853-2017-02-27

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
What sources do you rely on for your information? Please stop relying on these misleading and often lying sources. They are no more valid than televangelists and fad-product salesman.


The Bill Gates conspiracy theories are all nonsense.

He's not banned in India at all, the Foundation works to reduce poverty and provide access to healthcare in India to this day.

Source: Am of Indian Origin.

Also:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/gates-org-kicked-out-of-india/
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-gates-india-idUSKBN22V27F
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-gates-coronavirus-vaccine-conspiracy_n_5eb9ab7ac5b69358ef8a9803
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...-for-poor-india-health-985853-2017-02-27

The Huffington Post???? Really???? I wouldn't put that Left Wing trash in a parakeet's cage.

Snopes has already been called out for lying repeatedly when it comes to Christians and Conservatives.

And you chide me for reading "lying and misleading sources" ?????

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None of these are actual sources, just some opinion websites. None mention your Bill Gates conspiracy theory.

The NBC link is the closest thing to legit and it says the CDC changed their opinion based on further study.

I haven't seen evidence to the contrary of Joe Biden having been legitimately elected. Your esteemed sources notwithstanding.

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Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
I could go on and on and on


Please don't. Could you just stop your irrational assault on rationality, or do you enjoy embarrassing yourself and this Forum?

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I would lke to follow up on my comments. I would like to say that we should be very careful in criticizing leadership. I am a retired Navy captain. I learned real fast that the whole world looks very different when you are the one in charge. What we engage in here is a lot of breezy speculation. When your name is on the results, an your neck will be the one on the chopping block if it goes badly, it is a lot more sobering.

The administrator is absolutely right. Lockdowns should be avoided for the reasons cited. That is why lesser precautions have been advanced. Nobody wants to wreck the economy, and anyone that thinks they do is engaged in a bad faith argument. We have to look at the facts on the ground. The daily increase in cases have more than doubled in the last three weeks to approaching 200,000 per day. Even with a rosy expectation of 0.6% fatality rate, that is 800 anticipated deaths per day. And, as I previously pointed out, that is only possible with our best front-line care. Right now we are seeing states that have virtually exhausted their ICU capacity. So, their medical infrastructure is meeting or exceeding 100% capacity. Is anyone going to try and convince me that the current success rate will be maintained as we go past that? And when these facilities are at 125% or worse, what happens when they roll you in from an auto accident or other medical event? And lets not even talk about what the economic cost of this will be. This is going to be a first rate mess and it could collapse our medical system. Even if it doesn't, the ramifications will be more than anyone here can imagine. This is why we are seeing governors that were previously cavalier about this changing their tune very quickly. They are seeing an unfolding disaster and its going to have their name on it if they do not head it off. And when that disaster happens, the same people that were cheering them on will be out for their hides.

How does this affect us as Christians? Yes, the current restriction have had an emotional and spiritual fallout. I remind everyone that "sprirituality" is not something that governments are known for. Government is here to keep the normal mayhem that human beings create under just enough control so that we can run a coherent civilization. Romans 13:1-7. (Not perfect, but sometimes you have to accept that its probably as good as it gets by human standards.) The Church is here to provide medicine for the soul. So, if these people are slipping beneath the waves, I don't think its the government's fault. Maybe we need to be just a bit more creative within the parameters we have to deal with. Honestly, there's a lot of complaining about what we can't do and not enough action on the things we can. I think that if one brings the light of Christ to a person in emotional need, He might just overlook that missed Sunday service. Conversly, if one fails to minister to that person, then why bother with Sunday church? And what value will your Fast be? I think somewhere we are taught to leave our offerings at the altar and attend to other things, then come back. And how about this? What would all this look like if Christians spent more time praying and less time griping?

What distrubs me is the idea that we somehow should just float above this pandemic and go about our lives so long as it doesn't personally affect us. There is only one word for that. Pride. And that pride is just as arrogant as Lucifer's aspiration to ascent into heaven be like the Most High. And that doesn't turn out well. Isaiah 14:12-21. I see this as one of the Lord's many ways of showing us that we are not nearly as big as we think we are. And I see too many advocating for positions that, when you peel back the onion, suggest that we are.

My confession is that I would like to say that I live up to this. I honestly can't say that, but I'd like to. So I am just as guilty about being a lousy Christian as anyone else. Maybe worse.

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There is multiple covid-19 vaccines becoming available very soon, as the FDA just emergency approved
PFIZER's Regeneron covid-19 vaccine that does not have human stem cells of any kind.
My son works for PFIZER and is one of the heads of clinical trials.

When the vaccines are available is the government going to rescind having to wear masks, or are they still
going to subjugate us to wear them?

Also what are the statistics from the regular seasonal FLU (remember that?)

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Originally Posted by jvf
.

When the vaccines are available is the government going to rescind having to wear masks, or are they still
going to subjugate us to wear them?

Yes...depends on which "experts" are speaking.

Dr. Fauci has said that masks and restrictions may need to last all through 2021, then he backed off a little; the Pennsylvania Secretary of health (who is angling for a high level position in a possible Biden administration) has said the same...in the very same week in which Pennsylvania became the first state in the nation to order mask wearing in your own home if there are people present from another household.

North Carolina became the first copycat of "mask at home" today.

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