www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall An Imploration for charity towards traditional Latin Catholics

Hello everyone! I hope you all are doing well. I am "new" to this forum but I must confess I have been lurking here for a while now. This is a long post, but I think it is worth reading, if even one person benefits from this post, I see it as worthwhile. I am a traditional Latin Catholic who attends an SSPX chapel and who defends the SSPX position. But wait! Put down your pitchforks, I'm not what you think! I'm not here to call anyone here a heretic or engage in polemics, I simply am here to request one thing, charity. We are blessed to live in a time where people of all sorts of perspectives can speak to one another despite being states, countries, or even continents away! But what we lose in the process is the charity that most seem to naturally give to one another when speaking in person. People are simply mean, uncharitable, and turn into little demons every time they get behind their anonymous name on the internet. This is something quite stereotypical of traditional Latin lay folks on the internet, having an anonymous Latin name (I'm aware of the irony), being completely ignorant of their own position and the position of others and yet they speak with a triumphalist attitude as they have convinced themselves that they indeed know everything there is to know about the faith. This is why, believe it or not, many traditional Catholics, especially within the SSPX circles don't go on social media. This is a well-known danger and often the ones who do go on social media usually fall into this sort of attitude frequently.

But I think the forum is somewhat unique and in many ways is worth going on. This place isn't an echo chamber, there are many different perspectives to be found here. Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, and then each of the different perspectives within each communion. I've seen Anglicans on here and of course, Latins as well. And the thing that makes me glad is that there does seem to be a general attitude that is expressed in the "Who we are" section of this forum, that the only way these differing perspectives can speak with one another is if they are using charity. People rightly will critique others for bringing in their triumphalist attitudes, ruining all forums of discussion especially in conversations between Eastern Orthodox and Catholics. This is often due to people being in an echo chamber and hating everything alien to them. This to me seems to be the cause of the measures taken by the Americanist Latin Bishops towards Fr. Alexis Toth and the Eastern Catholic diaspora in the United States, which still causes hurt to many today. This is not to say that everything is relative, but rather that people should understand that there are perspectives other than their own and your position does need to account for those other perspectives if it is to hold any weight. I was lucky when I first converted to Catholicism (Not traditional initially) after being raised Protestant to be exposed early on to a Ruthenian Church. I was being taught things like "The Mass will look the same, no matter where you go" and when I first went to the Divine Liturgy, I knew that there was more to Catholicism than just my little, ignorant perspective.

But most of you, presumably already know all of this, but I thought I should lay the background and reestablish the principles we ought to hold before making my assertion. I assert that this charity isn't being shown to traditional Catholics, especially towards the SSPX and friendly communities. Despite the great ideals of this forum, I have seen the SSPX and other communities friendly to them called "A plague", "schismatic", "wackos", "illegitimate", and "outside of the Catholic Church" without anyone raising any issue. Maybe these things are true about these hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of people and hundreds of priests and religious, I certainly don't hold these ideas to be true. But what if the tables were reversed? What if I as a Latin Catholic called Eastern Catholics "A plague that is outside of the Catholic Church" or called the Eastern Orthodox "wackos" or said Anglican orders were "illegitimate" what do you think would happen to me? I can guarantee that wouldn't be accepted on this forum. Another aspect to this is that many of the Eastern Catholics specifically on this forum don't seem to understand what happened to traditional Catholic communities and don't see the striking similarities between them and their plights in the early 20th century. To the Eastern Catholics here, I would like you to simply imagine what it would feel like if one day our iconostasis was ripped out of the Church and destroyed, or sold off to a museum, your use of incense banned and your hymns changed to a band with electric guitars and then told if you didn't like it that you were "schismatic" or "disobedient". I don't think we need to hypothesize what would happen, we only need to look at the events of Father Alexis Toth to know what many would do! Shockingly, I've seen this response to this sort of hypothetical with the claim that this is somehow a "Latinization" despite this very thing happening to traditional Catholic communities not so long ago, just replace the iconostasis with our statues, altar rails and high altars. There also seems to be a double standard regarding the liturgy in general. If someone says that the Eastern Churches should make their liturgy more like the Latins (They shouldn't), this is seen as the sin of all sins by most on this forum. But when traditional Latins lament how the liturgy has been destroyed the excuse is that "There are similarities to the Eastern Rites!" I still don't quite understand how shortening the Kyrie by 2/3, turning the altar around, removing the idea of the sanctuary and removing the signs of sacrifice in the liturgy to be a more "Eastern" idea but even if they were, it is a sign of hypocrisy.

I think many on this forum assume that because the SSPX is against some of the things said in Vatican II it means we are against the reorientation made towards the Eastern churches. I think many think that they want to crush the East and make everything Latin. But let me just say that nothing could be farther from the truth. In my many adventurers as a Catholic, no group has been more friendly towards the diversity in tradition in the Church than the priests of the SSPX. In a class taught by an SSPX priest, one of the first principles I was given was to not ridicule the other traditions within the Church, for they might be more ancient than our own. We were shown the Coptic liturgy and the Coptic ascetic life and were inspired by them. At my chapel, the priests are constantly referring to the Eastern churches with high esteem and will reference the liturgy of Saint Chrysostom in their homilies. The SSPX news site has highlighted the great successes of the Eastern churches in India and our local SSPX bookstore sells icons. There seems to be a special hatred on this site towards the SSJK, but no one here seems to know the history and issues behind that flourishing group or has let them defend themselves before casting their judgment upon them.

We probably have genuine differences with each other. I'll disagree with other Latin Catholics about the Novus Ordo. I'll disagree with many Eastern Catholics about the status of the Orthodox or what it means to be Catholic and I'll raise questions about the veneration of certain people, I'll disagree with Anglicans about transubstantiation and I'll disagree with the Orthodox on the filoque but what I'm asking for is that we be allowed to have those conversations charitably and that the traditional Latin position be shown the same amount of charity as others. I ask that this forum reevaluate how it is applying charity to all groups and that we all reflect on how we can more charitable towards all, but especially our fellow Christians during this special liturgical season. Is not the purpose of this forum to have a conversation so that we may understand the position of others and to understand our own better?

Therefore, I conclude with the words of St. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians chapter 13.

"If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil

Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known. And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity."
_________

If I have said anything contrary to the truth, it is completely my fault, and if I have said anything truthful or enlightening it is due only to the Holy Ghost. I hope that I haven't been an obstruction in this post to His working to bring souls closer to Our Lord. I realize that even in writing this, the temptation towards a lack of charity is there, and in the spirit of this, I won't be replying to any comments on this post.

In Christ,

D C

Welcome to the Forum!

I was directed here eleven years ago by a tri-ritual (N.O., Byzantine, Latin) RC Priest when I was Lutheran clergyman.

I have never encountered anything other than respectful dialog, even when we must "agree to disagree".

The Moderators have intervened only when absolutely necessary and deserve high praise for keeping this a place of honest dialogue and prayerful support.

Have a blessed Nativitytide!

You’ll get no pitchfork from me, but thanks to The Second Vatican Council’s Decree Dignitatis Humanae, Rome, and most Catholics regard SSPX with a good deal more charity today than would have been exhibited by the Vatican and the faithful prior to 1965 as I was a twenty-three year old Catholic zealot back then.

Hence, good Pope Emeritus Benedict XVII could write:

The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons. As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church. There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved. In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church. In light of this situation, it is my intention henceforth to join the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei" – the body which has been competent since 1988 for those communities and persons who, coming from the Society of Saint Pius X or from similar groups, wish to return to full communion with the Pope – to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed are essentially doctrinal in nature and concern primarily the acceptance of the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar magisterium of the Popes.

Is it the case for the SSPX that, as a post in another thread characterizes another site:
The irony, however, is that for a (growing?) number of faithful Catholics, "being more catholic than the pope" on some issues isn't that hard after all. And some feel the same about the USCCB and Catholic moral doctrine regarding Catholic politicians and political party positions and platforms.

Apart from that, given what Benedict XVII wrote as Pope as quoted in part and here [vatican.va] in full, how is the status -- the present canonical position not the process by which arrived -- of the SSPX different from that of the Orthodox churches?

Thank you for providing that link to the full text of the Pope's letter. All should read it. It is a most beautiful expression, not only of charity, but of great compassion and tolerance from a great pastor. I felt I was reading one of the Church Fathers. The Pope Emeritus is Benedict XVI (16th), not XVII (17th). My apologies to His Holiness. I guess I'm just not as Roman as the pope! As far as canonical status between SSPX and legitimate sister Orthodox churches is concerned; the latter is just a priestly society claiming to be within the fold, so to speak, and being denied that status because of their intransigence, the former are ancient apostolic church bodies who have separated themselves from Rome. In truth, both, I guess, would be canonically schismatic from Rome's point of view.

There really isn't a more respectful Forum around than this one - first point.

There are also some Western liturgical rites within Orthodoxy today and they are of the Tridentine-style usage. They might have more in common with the SSPX than otherwise thought. IF it is the position of the SSPX that Rome has fallen away from this or that, there is much doubt the Western Orthodox will argue with any of that but they will provide a list of other offending points to boot. The real issue between the SSPX and Rome, as I see it, is if it is their contention that Vatican II should be repealed, in whole or in part, and that therefore this Council erred - what does that do to Catholic dogma concerning infallibility and the continuous safeguarding of the Catholic Church against error? If Rome erred at Vatican II, then the Catholic Church is really not what it has always said it is. Traditional Latin Catholics are "traditional" when they maintain the continuous protection against error the Holy Spirit, according to Catholic teaching, affords it. And can one be in communion with Rome while maintaining that Vatican II has erred, in whole or in part?

I doubt I can be more respectful than that. And I haven't even touched anything remotely connected to church calendar issues.

The SSPX is not friendly toward the Eastern Orthodox. And SSPX takes a hard and unfriendly line toward unity with Eastern Orthodox. Although the EO do not approve, nevertheless the Catholic Church allows Eastern Orthodox to receive the RC Sacraments without converting. But the SSPX does not allow Orthodox to receive their Sacraments.

Christ is in our midst!!

AlNg,

Welcome to the forum.

Bob
Moderator

I have known a family which is SSPX and they are lovely, very committed Catholic people. There is no way I would ever want to disturb them with discussions or provocations on the SSPX matter. I would like to be as good in my faith and ecclesial commitment as they are in theirs. I will always be respectful toward them and leave them alone.

How can SSPX refuse Orthodox when that is a Papal decision?

I really appreciate what you have written. Unfortunately (and I am definitely NOT pinning this on you), there have been several SSPX people, and even people from the FSSP, who have told me that I am a schismatic for canonically switching from the Latin Church to the Ukrainian Church, that both of my parish priests are illegitimate, unholy priests because they are married, that unless I kneel for communion I am disrespecting Christ, and that I am a heretic for venerating post-schism Orthodox Saints. All of these things have been always been allowed by the Church, at least since 1596. However, that seems to make no difference to these people. To them, I am a schismatic for being a member of an approved rite within the Catholic Church.

They can because the SSPX does not believe it has an obligation to follow papal decisions that they consider to be faulty.

Dear David,

Well, i would like to know how many martyrs for the Catholic faith the SSPX and the FSSP have by comparison with the Ukrainian Catholic Church? How dare these narrow Latins say something like this! They are simply IGNORANT of the established facts and traditions of the entire Catholic Church.

As for married priests - the Latin Church had plenty of them until celibacy became mandatory for RC priests . . . or was it ever...?? I won't get into that. Kneeling for Holy Communion is a medieval practice imitating the secular tradition of kneeling to one's lord or sovereign. We Eastern Catholics have had the practice of the Blessing with the Chalice in our Liturgy for . . . centuries. Roman Catholics introduced that as a separate "Supplication" service much later Many Roman Catholic practices are "johnny come latelies" when they are compared with EC practices.

As for post-Schism Orthodox Saints . . . Popes have themselves received post-Schism Orthodox Saints into the Roman Calendar off and on over the last thousand years. Any SSPX or FSSP-er who would like to debate with me on that point especially is welcome to do so. Just name the time and the place!

I have tremendous respect for the old Liturgies of the RC Church. I do think it rich when there are SSPX-ers who ask for "respect" for themselves when they have absolutely no intentions of demonstrating the same respect to the venerable Eastern Churches!

And Archbishop John Ireland with this dislike for all things EC, I'm surprised he was never made an Orthodox saint for all the Eastern Catholics he personally kicked out of the Catholic Church and pushed toward Orthodoxy!

Sheesh!!

Christ is in our midst!!

Alex,

I have a picture of Abp John Ireland in a book printed in 1910. Some day I may try to copy it as a jpg file and upload it for the members here.

Bob

"I do think it rich when there are SSPX-ers who ask for "respect" for themselves when they have absolutely no intentions of demonstrating the same respect to the venerable Eastern Churches!"

Unfortunately, many of them have no respect for western Catholics other than themselves, either.