Dear Paul,

You've touched on a fascinating aside!

Traditionally, we are NOT permitted to pray "us sinners" because we may only accuse ourselves, each individually, of being "a sinner."

When the Jesus Prayer is used in the plural, it is always "have mercy on us. Amen."

And some monasteries may say "us sinners" but that is because of the monastics' intimate spiritual connection with one another.

While we're at it, here is how we can make the Sign of the Cross using the Jesus Prayer.

The Old Believers, of course, bunch up the thumb and last two fingers of the hand (the Holy Trinity) and extend the index finger with the middle finger that is slightly bent (the Divine Son of God "bent the heavens" and came down to earth to become Man by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary).

Those two fingers represent Christ, of course. But we may also use the three fingers as well.

We say "Lord" while touching our forehead to signify Christ's eternal procession from the Father as True Light from True Light.

Then we place our hand on our belly to signify Christ coming down from heaven to assume Flesh in the womb of the Most Holy Virgin Mary and we say "Jesus Christ."

Then we go to the right shoulder to say "Son of God" to indicate that when He completed His work on earth, He was crucified, died, was buried, arose on the third day and ascended to heaven where He sits at the Right Hand of God the Father.

Then we move to the left shoulder and say, "have mercy on us" or "have mercy on me a sinner" to ask the Lord to save us from the Left and to forgive us our sins and number us among those who will stand on His Right at the Final Judgement.

Then we release our arm and then bow our heads as we say "Amen."

Alex

Paromer,

It is not, to my knowledge, acceptable. The Jesus Prayer is to be prayed until it is internalized, and patterned to the very breaths a person takes. In Orthodox tradition, the Prayer itself is supposed to be taught by one's Spiritual Father, so that proper breathing patterns, etc are established. It is the simplist of prayers, yet whole books have been written around it. I would not alter it.

As to corporate use, yes, in classes where the use of the prayer has been taught, under the direction of the clergy teaching the class, A class I was in was once directed in a corporate prayer in the chapel to use "us" as each took it in turn to pray one rope before passing it to the next person. As this was evening and the chapel was lit only by candlelight, it was a very moving experience...All in the chapel, kneeling...and one voice in darkness, with the prayer...as it ran through your own heart...until someone passed you a prayer rope and you continued the prayer yourself.

Occassionally these classes in the Jesus Prayer are offered by various Orthodox Churches...and open to all denominations. The class I attended had a Roman Catholic priest, a female Methodist (?)minister, and many other laity of all denominations... and was taught by an Orthodox Deacon. All were most welcome, and shared an interest in the prayer itself.

Dear Gaudior,

And the New Age movement has also appropriated the Jesus Prayer and one may pay to attend classes in how to say it given by those who are not Christians!

However, sometimes those who use the Prayer for "psychosomatic" satisfaction or whatever are brought to its true meaning . . .

Once, when sitting in a dentist's chair, a woman stood by me talking about her Buddish mantra. She belonged a sect "Nicheren" or something like that.

I suggested she take up the Jesus Prayer!

"But I"m Jewish!" she said.

"I didn't know the Buddha figured as one of the Old Testament prophets!" I replied - tongue in cheek (actually the dentist's hand had my tongue in my cheek at the time).

In any event, I got her a copy of the "Way of the Pilgrim."

She's doing well . . .

Alex

Alex....

You will notice I very carefully said...under direction of spiritual father...taught by Orthodox Deacon...

Yes. it is sad that most who use these prayers use them as New-Age mantras.

I applaud your choice, though.

It is more appalling that several people make choices that do not understand them: Yoga, some martial arts repetitions, and other "relaxation techniques contain affirmations to other gods than Christ, and because the simple-minded never ask the meaning of the words they are asked to repeat, they repeat them.

But that is doubtless a topic for another thread.

My point is that no rule of prayer, or alteration to one's rule of prayer, however valid, should be made without consultation with one's Spiritual Father. He may feel it is not best or wisest for you to undertake such at the moment. As hard as it is in our daily culture, our Church needs to be our ruling guide in matters spiritual.

Friends,

Perhaps I am being influenced by the Fatima prayer:

"Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy."

The plural is used is used extensively in the Fatima prayer. It is a pious intention to pray for all sinners in the world.

However, I believe the Jesus prayer has some root in the prayer in the parable of the publican. He pleads for mercy for himself. This is not unlike our contrition for our personal sins when we receive the mystery of confession.

I can see there is a place for both kinds of prayers in our prayer life.

Paul

This should win a prize as the oldest active thread on the board!

Dear Paul,

Yes, but the East will continue to insist on the "I" even in corporate prayer, whereas the West would tend to override the "I" and more frequently substitute with "us."

For example, the Nicene Creed that we Easterners recite always begins with "I believe" and this in the midst of large congregations.

Faith is always a personal event. It is made within the context of the Church, yes, but it always refers to "me" and "my" response to Christ.

There is nothing wrong with the Fatima decade prayer.

It was, after all, approved for public and private use in 1956, the year I was born . . .



Alex

Alex,

I hear there is a proposal in the Latin Church to replace the "We" in the Nicene Creed with "I". I don't know if it will happen.

I believe the Apostles' Creed still uses "I believe..."

Paul

Dear Paul,

I hope that you guys will return to the Apostolic faith one day . . .

I'm still not over the whole issue regarding your use of azymes . . .

Alex

At Niciea it was "we".

Then the words were changed. Instead of a statement of the deposit of faith, guarded by the church, to which we adhere, it became a statement of personal belief. Yadayadayada ... private judgement, Protestant Reformation, ... secularization, ...

I think it all began when the Creed was altered.

DEar djs,

Actually, the form used in the Divine Liturgy is the baptismal version, the one used by catechumens where the "I" is used.

Certainly, at Nicea the "we" would have been used as it was the expression of the Council Fathers - ie. all the Fathers would have subscribed to it.

There are other examples in our Liturgy where the "I's" have it, such as the prayer of the Thief prior to Communion.

Alex

I just finished rereading the Way of the Pilgrim and it strikes me that the use of the Jesus Prayer by the Pilgrim and that done by the Hesychasts was directed at related but differing goals by degree. The goal of both was communion with Christ but at the Pilgrim's level was to make the prayer self-activating lofty in itself, while that of the Hesychasts was to see the Light of Tabor, something granted to but a few.

The reason I mention this is, and I am not accusing anyone here of this, many speak of the Jesus Prayer as if everyone's goal should be Tabor, when in fact noone chooses this but is gifted this by Christ, even though the gift is preceded by an intensive preparation. Remember even only three of the Apostles were chosen not all twelve.

So while everyone needs a spiritual director, I don't think the practice of the Jesus Prayer as done by the Pilgrim could be spiritually harmful. On the otherhand practice of the advanced techniques required for the Tabor experience could only be undertaken in our society by a monastic and even then one of many years whose has been tested and judged by his/her superior. To undertake these techniques without adequate prepartion and training could indeed be spiritually disasterous.

Fr. Deacon Lance

For me the Jesus prayer is a way to ask forgiveness and pray without ceaseing, I never thought of it in anyother way. Tell me more about Tabor, if you will?

Simply put it is the direct experience of the Uncreated Light (Energy) of the Trinity like SS. Peter, John and James experienced on Mt. Tabor.

Hmmmmmm.

The experience of Tabor would be a lovely thing, but it's one of those "grace" things - not entirely under our control.

To me, the Jesus Prayer is about relationship - it very succinctly defines where I stand, what I am, who HE is, and which way things flow.

Making it into that self-sustaining prayer of the heart - well, it's like unto having an internet connection that's "always up." Oh - and it's potentially bidirectional.

Un-theologically yours,

Sharon