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Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42559 04/04/05 10:23 PM
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Altar Boy Offline OP
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Just suppose.....

that the new pope turned out to be a liberal who would bow to the wishes of the liberals in the Church and declare "ex cathedra" that women should be allowed into the priesthood and Catholics should be allowed to use artificial birth control....

What would this mean to you as a Catholic?

Would such a pronouncement, defying 2000 years of tradition and teaching, be in any way valid?

Would you consider "doxing" if you are a Catholic?

I'm not trying to start a ruckus, but I just have to wonder about this, given the number of times I keep hearing from the media that the "members of the Catholic Church" want these changes.

My hope is, of course, in the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit that these things NOT come to pass.

Brother Ed

Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42560 04/04/05 10:48 PM
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anamchristi Offline
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I would thank the Holy Spirit that my hopes and prayers were finally answered.

Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42561 04/04/05 10:49 PM
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Carson Daniel Offline
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I don't know. On a conservative RC board you would probably be banned for bringing up the subject. On a liberal board you would be hailed as a great theologian who ought to be the next pope.

According to one geneticist I heard in 200,000 years in won't make any difference. Men will cease to exist.

I don't know.

Dan L

Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42562 04/04/05 10:49 PM
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Father Gregory Offline
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Dear Brother Ed, CHRIST IS RISEN! I don't think you have a serious worry bro...after all, 114 of the 117 cardinals that will cooperate with the Holy Spirit is selecting the next pope...were appointed by Pope John Paul II. Now not that he 'stacked the deck' but I'm sure he chose men who had were firm in their orthodoxy and firm that in Catholic faith...and to boot, there is the promise of Christ Himself, that the 'gates of hell' will never prevail against the Church! I think we can all sleep soundly tonight...albeit with a great sorrow in our hearts over having the Holy Father no longer in our midst. From the Holy Father's place above, you can be SURE that he has the Lord's ear in any case...and I'll bet the Lord listens to his requests too (or as the Eastern Church says: has great boldness before God). Rest well tonight Brother...it is His Church; His Bride and you can be sure He'll take good care of her!

In this faith,
+Fr. Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42563 04/04/05 10:55 PM
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Myles Offline
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Since according to the principles laid down in Lumen Gentium the issues you refered to are closed due to the authorative nature of the ordinary magisterium I dont think we have to consider such things. Those calling for these changes have misunderstood the Church's Dogmatic Constitution and the commentary in the Catechism 890-892 on that subject. The Pope's charism ex Cathedra is not inspriation but infallibility. His it is to define what is undefined in a definitive manner not to create something new. That violates the very principle and understanding of ex Cathedra statements found in both Vatican councils. With a proper understanding of Catholic ecclesiology one can see the hypothetical situation you are giving as a scenario is an impossibility.


"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42564 04/05/05 12:50 AM
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Altar Boy Offline OP
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Quote
I would thank the Holy Spirit that my hopes and prayers were finally answered.
Would you mind explaining that a little bit?

Thank you.

Brother Ed

Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42565 04/05/05 02:09 AM
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byzanTN Offline
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I have heard (facetiously, of course, but maybe there is a grain of truth here) that if the pope dies the night before he is to promulgate a new doctrine, it's a good sign that the Holy Spirit is at work.

Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42566 04/05/05 05:57 AM
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Stephanos I Offline
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For those of us who believe that the Pope, like the Church is guarded from error that would be an impossiblity in the first place.
And should a liberal Pope try something like that I think lightning would strike from heaven and spare us all the bother.
Should such a thing ever really happen would I consider "doxing", probably not, just join with others and elect ourself a real Pope.
wink
Stephanos I

Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42567 04/05/05 12:31 PM
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harmon3110 Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Altar Boy:
Just suppose.....

that the new pope turned out to be a liberal who would bow to the wishes of the liberals in the Church and declare "ex cathedra" that women should be allowed into the priesthood and Catholics should be allowed to use artificial birth control....

What would this mean to you as a Catholic?
If the birth control teaching were changed, I would be very happy. I think the Catholic teaching is wrong on this issue; I think the Orthodox teaching is right on this issue.

If women priests were allowed, I would be stunned but I would try to be open-minded. It would be a big change. On the other hand, Mary was the first person who received Jesus and who gave Jesus to humanity; and that is ultimately what a priest does in a sacramental way.

But, I would be concerned if this new pope made those changes "ex cathedra" without consulting the bishops or holding a council. Those are very big changes, and to make such changes without consulting the bishops --especially in light of Vatican 2-- would give me serious pause. It would make me wonder what is next: with this pope or future popes. Nevertheless, I would probably stick it out as a Catholic for the same reasons I am Catholic today: the Gospel, the Eucharist, unity, independence from secular governments, and my own personal heritage.

Now, the above opinions are only my opinions, and they are my answer to original poster's question. For those who wonder --perhaps with shock or outrage-- that I can be a Catholic while disagreeing with my Church on certain issues, the answer is simple: there is more to value in being a Catholic than in not. There is the Gospel. There is the Eucharist. There is the international unity on issues (especially moral issues), and there is the independence from secular governments, and both come from unity with the bishop of Rome. And, frankly, I am a Catholic: by hertiage as well as choice. All of that doesn't mean I agree with every single thing that the Church does or say, officially or unofficially. For example, I still think the birth control teaching is wrong and I think the ban on female clergy is questionable, etc. Yet, I find a way to live within the system because I think there is more value to being Catholic than not. Allow me to illustrate from everyday life. Generally, I think it is a good thing for my society to have laws. Laws generally prevent crime and promote peace and justice. However, I disagree with some of those laws, and I disagree with the rulings of some judges in some cases, and so on. Nevertheless, I'm not going to leave a society of law to be hermit or an anarchist because I disagree with some laws or some rulings. Instead, I find a way to live within the system because most of it is quite good. And, in both my Church and in my society, I try to cultivate a little humility; and I try to realize that maybe, just maybe, I might be wrong and the other guy might be right; and, hence, getting along is more important than insisting on what **I** want.

But, the original question is --in my opinion-- purely theoretical. John Paul 2 selected cardinals who agreed with his views, and only cardinals can realistically become the pope, and thus it is virtually impossible that a man can be elected to the papacy who disagrees with John Paul 2's views. And, JP2 did not approve of artificial birth control or women priests. Hence, the next pope probably won't, either.

--John

Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42568 04/05/05 12:52 PM
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paromer Offline
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Brother Ed,

Have you been eating too much ice cream before you sleep? You are having nightmares. wink

Paul

Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42569 04/05/05 01:00 PM
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Myles Offline
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One more time...

The Pope cannot change what has already been affirmed. Ex Cathedra infallibility allows him to make binding judgements and definitions upon what already has been done. He cannot draw doctrines out of thin air because his charism is infallibility not inspiration. Please look at the document Lumen Gentium and the points in the Catechism that refer to these things. The Pope cannot for instance ex cathedra decide angels dont exist. His role is to confirm his brothers in the faith they have recieved. Why is this boogey man story of the inspired Pope being banded around a Byzantine Catholic forum??


"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42570 04/05/05 01:22 PM
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harmon3110 Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Myles:
One more time...

The Pope cannot change what has already been affirmed. Ex Cathedra infallibility allows him to make binding judgements and definitions upon what already has been done. He cannot draw doctrines out of thin air because his charism is infallibility not inspiration. Please look at the document Lumen Gentium and the points in the Catechism that refer to these things. The Pope cannot for instance ex cathedra decide angels dont exist. His role is to confirm his brothers in the faith they have recieved. Why is this boogey man story of the inspired Pope being banded around a Byzantine Catholic forum??
Dear Myles,

I don't think this thread of this discussion hinges upon a mistaken understanding of the ex cathedra doctrine. I think the thread of this discussion is to speculate what it would be like if the next pope tried to make liberal changes in the Church.

That topic is worth consideration because it is a possibility, regardless of precedent. If precedent has one consistent lesson, in secular or religious matters, it is this: whoever has power can try to set precedent.

Yet, the history of the Church also has some interesting examples of when the Holy Spirit protected the deposit of the Faith regardless of the precedent that human beings were attempting to impose. For example, the controversy about Arianism and the orthodoxy of St. Athanasius comes to mind. So too does the iconclast controversy. Etc.

So, the topic is not "ex cathedra."

The topic is: What would happen to the Church if the next pope did, in fact, try to impose liberal changes on the Church such as allowing artificial birth control or the ordination of women? Hence, what would be the ramifications to the Church overall, and in the lives of us as individuals, and what is the likelihood of any of this happening?

--John

Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42571 04/05/05 01:26 PM
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harmon3110 Offline
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P.S. Welcome back, Myles. I presume your spring break (following your university examinations) is over?

Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42572 04/05/05 01:34 PM
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Joe T Offline
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Is there really such a thing as a liberal Pope or a conservative Pope? Can a Pope or bishops be corrected or removed if he is a professed liberal or conservative? And by whose definition of these terms? They are so-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o vague. Last year's liberalism is today's conservatism. Like shifting sand.

What if the Pope is heterodox rather than orthodox? Wouldn't this be the real issue here rather than using contemporary political terms?

Joe

Re: Just Suppose......(re: the new pope) #42573 04/05/05 01:52 PM
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byzanTN Offline
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I believe popes can legally be removed from office for teaching heresy. It hasn't been done, that I am aware of, but I understand that the bishops do have that authority. My reading of the decrees on birth control and women priests is that they are binding and not open to change. How do others on the forum view this?

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