The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Augoustinos, Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada
5604 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (Elizanna, 1 invisible), 66 guests, and 467 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,747
Posts412,016
Members5,604
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4253 02/06/03 03:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,664
Communion of Saints Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,664
So what's happening with the Athonite monks and all the problems? Has there been a resolution?

I didn't see anything mentioned in the newspapers - what is going on there now? It's already been several days since that article was posted.

CS

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4254 02/06/03 08:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 589
Francisco Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 589
Dear Father Mark, Your blessing, reverend father.

First of all I would ask what "spin-doctoring" means? Excuse me, father, but my English is not so rich.

Second, I would like to tell you that I am very sorry that my comments make you so sorrow. The all situation with the Esfigmenites makes me also very sorrow.

In your last post you blame the Ecumenical Patriarch for what you call “the polarization of Orthodoxy” (both the polarization of Orthodoxy and the accusations against the ecumenical Patriarch make me very sorrow). Are you sure that the Ecumenical Patriarch is the only on to blame here? The other patriarchates and autocephalous Churches (the ultra nationalism and personal ambitions of Archbishop Chrystodoulos of Athens are a good example of the real causes of the Orthodox polarization) as well as the non canonical Orthodox jurisdictions have no responsibility in the phenomenon of “Orthodox polarization”?

Both the Esfigmenites monks and their supporters outside the Holy Mountain (Synod of the Genuine Christian Orthodox of “Archbishop” Chrysostomus II of Athens) proclaimed that the bishop of Rome is the Anti-Christ and the personification of evil over the earth. Many people in the country I live, Greece, agree with this opinion. Should I consider them “fanatics” or just “good Orthodox Christians”? Should I admit that the Pope of Rome is the Anti-Christ and that myself a heretic? That is the proper way a Christian Orthodox is expected to show his faith and Christian charity? Is there something Christian in their attitude? I am sorry to say that I find a lot of fanatism and intolerance in their attitude but very little of Christian love or love for the truth.

Should I admit that schism is the solution to the problems in Church (I do not agree with you or with your decisions, then I proclaim that you are a heretic and I stop being into communion with you) or a lawful way to express disapproval with the decisions of whosoever ecclesiastical authority?

Finally, should I admit accusations against the Patriarch of Constantinople or whomever, like the accusation of giving Holy Communion to heretics and even non Christians at the Patriarchal Holy Liturgy in Raven, without any kind of proof?

Yours in Christ
Francisco (in sorrow as well but glad in the Lord)

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4255 02/06/03 08:27 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 779
F
Fr Mark Offline
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 779
Dear Francisco -

I say that the people like the patriarch must take his share of responsibility for the situation. I did not say that he alone is to blame. The Esphigmenou fathers have not helped their own cause over the years with their inflamatory language and their habit of alienating so many people. many are to blame here, traditionalists as well as liberals.

Let's all pray very hard. This forum, in its own small way, counteracts some of that polaristation.

May the Lord bless you, Francisco.
Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4256 02/06/03 02:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Dear Francisco,

To help your English along . . . wink

"Spin-doctoring" is something that you often find in political circles.

Something compromising happens to a politician and the journalists want to know about it.

The politician's assistants (me, for example, I too am a 'spin-doctor') then do media releases and statements putting a "different spin" or interpretation on what happened, making it appear positive rather than negative.

FYI.

Alex

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4257 02/06/03 07:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 220
amonasticbeginner Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 220

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4258 02/09/03 12:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4
Carpathian 2nd gen Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4
Byzantine Catholic, Latin Rite or Orthodox, any who oppose the growing march of modernism and hope to preserve pristine Orthodox Catholic Christianity are most admirable, in my opinion. In varying degrees, modernisn is beseiging all traditionalists. I was very hopeful when the Holy Father asked ByzCaths to conform with Orthodox practice ie. baptism by immersion, chrismation etc.

ByzCaths survived with integrity against brutal athiestic communism without peer. Why do I now see completely clean shaven bishops, what is hence symbolized, fidelity to ancient traditions or a modernist bent ? Can not outward presence be a window to the soul? I hope Byzantine Catholics do not follow the mistakes of the Church's left lung and avoids the sad, tragic fate of the last 40 years in the Roman Rite.

Christ is Risen,
Carpathian

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4259 02/09/03 03:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 225
traveler Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 225
E-mail message
Updates on the EU and Athonite tradition.

(EuropaicaBulletin) Date: Sat,

Feb 8, 2003,

Greek Culture Minister Defends Legality of Ban on Women's Access to Mount Athos

On 20 January Greek Culture Minister Evangelos Venizelos met in Brussels with a delegation of Eurodeputies and the Europarliament's Culture Committee President Michel Rocard and discussed with them the issue of the Mount Athos monastic community's ban on women's access, reports Athens News Agency.

Venizelos explained the legal status of the 20 monastery strong community that enjoys special status for Mount Athos established in the Accession Treaty of Greece to the EEC, which was reaffirmed in Amsterdam. He also stressed that the peninsula is self-governed and all the land there belongs to the monasteries and is therefore private, without exception and without any of it belonging to the public or the central Greek state.

Venizelos alluded to the status of the Roman Catholic Church, while the Vatican, although being a member of the Council of Europe as a state, is represented solely by men and the European Union correctly accepted a close relationship with that state.

'The ban on women at Mount Athos and the regulations of administration of the Catholic Church, as well as that of other churches and all similar issues, are elements of a tradition which the EU should confront with tolerance and a pluralistic attitude which characterizes European civilization,' Venizelos said. No objections were raised by the Eurodeputies or Rocard.

The issue of Mount Athos' ban was raised in Europarliament on 14 January when a slim majority voted a non-binding 'resolution on the situation concerning basic rights in the European Union'. Article 98 of the resolution, which was approved by 277 votes to 255, 'requests the lifting of the ban on women entering Mount Athos in Greece, a geographical area of 400 km2, where women's access is prohibited in accordance with a decision taken in 1045 by monks living in the twenty monasteries in the area, a decision which nowadays violates the universally recognised principle of gender equality, Community non-discrimination and equality legislation and the provisions relating to free movement of persons within the EU.'

The all-male monastic community on a peninsula in northern Greece is semi-autonomous and has for 10 centuries barred the entry of women, as they dedicated their community to the memory of Mary the Mother of God, thus their monastic community is also called the 'Garden of Mary the Theotokos.' The ban is not enforced by the Greek government but by the elected council of the monastic community, which is multinational, as monastic communities on Mount Athos represent all nationalities of the Orthodox Christian Church.

Athos and Women: Different Opinions

by Sergey Stepanov (Pravda.ru)

Greek public community is indignant at the decision recently taken by the Dutch court and at the resolution of the European Parliament in January, when a Greek law that allows monks from Mount Athos not to let women to the Holy Mount was officially declared in court as 'contradicting human rights.' An official response to the declaration was immediate: governmental spokesman Christos Protopapas told European human rights activists that the right of the Athos monastic republic not to let women to the Holy Mountain was confirmed in the treaty of Greece's incorporation into the European Union. Which, as he said, ruled any further discussions out.
Currently rights of women are discussed in many EU organizations; in accordance with the juridical procedure adopted by the European Union, a case considered by the Dutch court can be further considered by the European court in Strasbourg.

Meanwhile, there are different opinions on the problem even in Greece. There are some active supporters of revocation of the above mentioned prohibition. For instance, European Parliament member Anna Karamanu is convinved that 'the prohibition was adopted a thousand years ago, in the epoch of the black Middle Ages in Europe', that is why 'it represents social realities of that period'; Anna Karamanu says that 'nowadays when equal rights for men and women are officially recognized, this prohibition cannot be valid any longer.'

The first Greek journalist who studied the problem of the prohibition for women to attend Athos, Fotini Pipili sticks to a particular opinion: 'I think that the present-day situation is caused by the policy of the monastery republic itself: Athos monasteries opened their doors to different famous princes, kings, actors, fashion designers, hairdressers and tourists from all over the world. As far as I know, the mysticism of the Holy Mountain vanished right at the period when monks began driving jeeps and started using modern services and technologies. The cosmopolitan policy of monks that they carried out within several past decades, has paved the road to the Holy Mountain. That is why I think this discrimination between men and women concerning access to Athos cannot exist any longer, as monasteries are mostly financed from sources of Europeans, men and women. I cannot reconcile myself with the fact that I am not allowed to the riches of Orthodoxy, of which I myself is a small part.'

However, popular singer Sofia Vossou says that traditions must be preserved: 'Although I am eager to pilgrimage to Athos, I think that the things must remain as they have been defined by our traditions. It is not bad at all to have some tradition. To my mind, the ideas of society suggested by modernists are devoid of respect and of our own ego. If finally the prohibition for women to visit Athos is lifted, it will be like abolishment of Christmas tree or Christmas itself. If my church allows, I would be the first to visit Athos. But for the time being, I keep up the traditions of my church as I am an Orthodox Christian. I respect the church and its regulations.'

However, there are even harsher opinions. For instance, Liana Kanelli, famous journalist and TV host, supports the prohibition for women to visit Athos. She says: 'Now urbanization and modernism bring destruction through entertainment. Part of the Auschwitz concentration camp was turned into a dance club, thus the place of the greatest tragedy became a place for entertainment. There are companies that make money on underwater tours to the places where atomic underwater tests were held. Do you think that in this world abolishment of the prohibition for women to visit Athos will be a progress? And this is at the time when women are still prohibited to visit the Athenian Club! In 1821, the Holy Mountain received women and children in order to save their lives. On the whole, I am not so much interested whether I have any right to drink coffee with cardinals in Vatican, or if it makes sense to set up mixed monasteries. Belief is the thing where everyone decides for himself. But if someone decides to break the sanctity of the Holy Mountain, I will take all possible efforts or organize a blockade to prevent such actions.'

Greece Minister of Culture, Evangelos Venizelos said the other day that the Greek government would not fulfil the resolution of the European Parliament concerning the prohibition (the resolution is not obligatory). The minister emphasizes that Athos is a unique monastic republic in northern Greece which enjoys a particular legal status. The ancient tradition in accordance with which women are not allowed to the peninsula is confirmed by constitutional acts of the European Union and by the Greek Constitution.

Besides, Evangelos Venizelos says that Athos is not the only place in Europe where women are not allowed for religious reasons.

The minister hinted that the European Parliament followed double standards; it is strange that the Parliament considers the prohibition for women to visit Athos, but it ignores the fact that governmental authorities of Vatican consist of men only and head of the government is elected by the authority consisting of men only.

We would like to mention that the prohibition for women to visit Athos was introduced over one thousand years ago, in the 9th century, when Byzantine emperors decided that the peninsula must be an abode of monks only.

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4260 02/09/03 06:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 788
Axios Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 788
Quote
Byzantine Catholic, Latin Rite or Orthodox, any who oppose the growing march of modernism and hope to preserve pristine Orthodox Catholic Christianity are most admirable... I hope Byzantine Catholics do not follow the mistakes of the Church's left lung and avoids the sad, tragic fate of the last 40 years in the Roman Rite.
Of course, as the rebel monks will be the first to tell you, the hint of any communality or common purpose among "Byzantine Catholic, Latin Rite or Orthodox" and the concept of an "Orthodox Catholic Christianity" that embraces these three communities is one of those very developments of the last 40 years and much more troubling to tradtionalists than clean shaven bishops.

Axios

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4261 02/09/03 06:44 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
D
djs Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Quote
ByzCaths survived with integrity against brutal athiestic communism without peer. Why do I now see completely clean shaven bishops, what is hence symbolized, fidelity to ancient traditions or a modernist bent? ...I hope Byzantine Catholics do not follow the mistakes of the Church's left lung and avoid the sad, tragic fate of the last 40 years in the Roman Rite.
I am not one to attach much of any symbolism to the length of facial hair. Modernism of "the last 40 years", however, can happily be ruled out. The first Bishop of Presov, Gregory Tarkovich (1818-41) is remebered in Father Pekar's 1969 History of the Prjashev Eparchy as "the last of our Bishops to wear a beard" (He is excluding, presumably, Administrators/Visitators).

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4262 02/09/03 08:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,341
Yuhannon Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,341
Greek Hermit Rebel Monk Killed
Sun Feb 9,10:55 AM ET

AP Europe -THESSALONIKI, Greece - A 25-year-old hermit monk died after accidentally driving his tractor off a cliff in an attempt to dodge police who have barricaded the rebel monastery, authorities said Sunday.

The incident occurred early Saturday in the Orthodox Christian sanctuary of Mount Athos, where the rebel Esphigmenou monastery has been sealed off by police since Jan. 29.

Police said the monk, Tryfonas, who lived in solitary quarters, tried to retrieve a tractor outside the monastery grounds during the night to avoid police detection and drove off the side of a cliff.

Esphigmenou's 117 monks are defying an eviction order imposed because of their fierce opposition to efforts to improve relations between the Orthodox Church and the Vatican (news - web sites).

They were ordered to leave the monastery after Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians last year declared the monks "schismatic."

The 1,000-year-old Esphigmenou is one of 20 active monasteries on Mount Athos, a peninsula in northern Greece from which all women are banned.

Police, who have orders to expel anyone who leaves the high-walled monastery, briefly lifted their cordon Sunday so that male relatives of the dead monk could attend his funeral inside the grounds of Esphigmenou.

The monastery's abbott has said Esphigmenou's monks will defy the eviction order, and have water and food enough to last two years.

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4263 02/10/03 12:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4
Carpathian 2nd gen Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4
The Enlightenment was a great blow to Christianity and the movement of the last 40 years springs from that earlier error. The information on Presov is greatly appreciated, that is where my grandfather exited after the Bolshevik invasion of 1920.

Orthodox opposition to the papacy is perhaps inevitable, but the current state of post-Vatican II Catholicism can not be at all helpful and is perhaps an additional hurdle.

The monks of Mt. Athos would seem familair to St. Nicholas. How much of modern Catholicism would be recognizable to St.Pius V ? Orthodoxy ranges in liberal to conservative, Antioch to ROCOR and has many issues similair to Catholicism.

I admire the monks with their "Orthodoxy or Death" banner. Relativism is the true danger of the modern age. Traditionalist Catholics have more in common with the rebel Greek monks (Even if they think us damned by our Catholicism) than their local RENEW suburban folk mass parish with mega-sized Bingo signs that invite pro-abortion politicians to speak.

Christ is Risen!
Carpathian

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4264 02/10/03 12:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,964
T
Two Lungs Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,964
Originally posted by "amonasticbeginner"
Quote
. . . the men and women who felt called to live this life just went ahead and did it. Then later when they had proved themselves, then the Bishop gave his formal approval. In fact many early monastics in the desert, went out to the desert to get away from all of the Bishops' rules. They just wanted to live a life of prayer as close to the Gospel as possible. . .
This makes a lot of sense. I'm sure each of us want to get away from the Bishop's rules at least once in a while.

The question here seems to be what level of respect the Bishop gets when one or a group disagrees with the Bishop's statements or conduct of his diocese/eparchy/patriarchate. And what the proper response is when the Bishop chastises the dissidents. This is more about disrespect than about simple obedience or lack of it.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4265 02/10/03 12:53 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 407
Mikey Stilts Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 407
Quote
Originally posted by Two Lungs:
This makes a lot of sense. I'm sure each of us want to get away from the Bishop's rules at least once in a while.
One of my pastor's favorite sayings is "Flee from women and bishops!" :p

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4266 02/10/03 01:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 225
traveler Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 225
Holy Esphigmenou Monastery web site

http://members.rogers.com/esphigmenoumonastery/enter.html

History of Esphigmenou: Monastery of Saints

The famous Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou is located close to the sea, on a peaceful inlet on the northeast side of Mount Athos in Greece. For over a thousand years, the Holy Monastery has been a source of strength and inspiration to Orthodox Christians from around the world.

The name of the monastery "Esphigmenou" originates from its physical position, which visually appears as if the area is being squeezed in by two mountains. The word "Sphigmeno" in Greek means to squeeze.

Others believe that the name originates from the monastery's founder, who supposedly always had a tight rope around his waist (Sphigmenos).

According to tradition, Esphigmenou was originally founded by Theodosius the Micros and his sister, Byzantine Empress Poulheria (408 - 450 AD). It was unfortunately destroyed by a huge rock which fell from the mountain, the ruins of which are situated about half a kilometre away from the current Monastery. The new Abbey was built by the fathers of the old Abbey, at the end of the 10th century or at the beginning of the 11th century.

The first document produced for the Abbey is a letter from Saint Paul the Xeropotamite, which was written in 1001 AD.

The famous monk Saint Anthony Petserski, founder of the famous Lavras Abbey in Kiev, lived at the Esphigmenou Abbey in the 11th century. He applied the monastic customs of Greece in his country, and subsequently became the founder of the Russian monastic movement.

For a short period in the 14th century, the abbot of the Abbey was the eminent hermit and theologian Saint Gregory Palamas, who later became Archbishop of Thessaloniki.

Two times in the 16th century, pirates destroyed and plundered the Abbey, though it was subsequently rebuilt by the monks. In the 17th century, the Abbey fell into a decline but during the years of the Russian King Alexander Michaelovits, it received many contributions from Russia, as well as from other Orthodox Christians, which helped renovate the Abbey.

In 1705, Gregory Melenikiou became monk in this Abbey, giving life again to the Monastery. Half a century later, Daniel from Thessaloniki was appointed Commissioner of the Abbey, after he had won the approval by Patriarch Gerassimos and the 'Sacred Gathering'. After his appointment, he transformed the Monastery into a cenobitic one.

In cenobitic style monasteries, monks live a communal way of life, and share all things. This includes such things as work, food, and prayer. Each father has a small rectangular room, with very few things in it.

Monks live under the nearly absolute authority of the abbot (hegoumenos), who is also their spiritual father. Saint Pachomius is usually regarded as the founder of cenobitic monastic life, though general rules for the administration of cenobitic monasteries were established later by Saint Basil the Great, Bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia. Nevertheless, each monastery has always been free to establish its own rules. The Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou is regarded as one of the strictest cenobitic Abbeys on Mount Athos.

The katholikon (the central church in the Monastery), dedicated to the Ascension of Our Lord, was built by the abbot Theodoros in the years 1806-1810. It stands on the site of the earlier katholikon and follows the typical Athonite plan. Its dedication service was conducted a year later by the Patriarch Gregorios V, during a visit to the Holy Mountain. During its construction, much assistance was given by the Metropolitan Ignatios of Kassandria, who donated his entire personal fortune to the work. The large and imposing church has a lead-covered roof with eight domes, the central dome being the largest. The domes were frescoed in 1811, 1818, and 1841. All the marble for the church was brought from the island of Tinos, the home of its architect, Paul.

During the Greek War of Independence of 1821, the Turks did great damage to the Monastery. In the years 1850-1858, new rows of cells were built. Apart from the katholikon, there are also fifteen chapels, eight inside and seven outside the Monastery.
The chapels of the Presentation of the Virgin and the Archangels are in the katholikon, right and left of the eso-narthex. The other chapels are dedicated to the Saints Kosmas and Damian, Saint Anthimos, Saint George, Saints Constantine and Helen, Saint Gregorios Palamas, Neilos the Wise, Neilos the Myrovletes and John the Merciful. Near the Katholikon stands the phiale for the blessing of the waters. The refectory stands opposite the western side of the katholikon.

For the last several decades, the monks at Esphigmenou have increasingly become persecuted and pressured by the Ecumenical Orthodox Patriarch, and by commemorators of the Patriarch, including the Greek Government. The reason for this persecution is because the monks became Zealots (non-commemorators), who in the 1960s broke off communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople and stopped commemorating him at their services.

At that time, Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras wilfully lifted the anathemas from the Roman Catholic Church, and pursued policies of adogmatic ecumenical activity (the unification of all churches and religions). Subsequent Ecumenical Patriarchs have continued to further pursue the heresy and goals of ecumenism.

Although a significant amount of monasteries protested against the Patriarchate and for a time were Zealots, eventually over the years they all returned to commemorating the Patriarch.

Today, only the fathers at the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou (and some fathers living in various Sketes) continue to be Zealots at Mt Athos.

To this day, the 117 fathers of Esphigmenou continue to be pressured and persecuted. Last year, all banking privileges for the Monastery had been frozen and checks sent to the Monastery were not being honoured. Police officers have repeatedly harassed the fathers, at one point they started a siege at the Monastery lasting over six months. There have also been reports that ferryboat access to the Monastery has been discontinued. Finally, visitors who proclaim that they are visiting Esphigmenou are refused entry visas into the Mt Athos peninsula. At present, new forms of persecution continue to plague the monks.

Re: Greece's rebel monks in stand-off #4267 02/10/03 02:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,301
R
RayK Offline
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,301
Quote
Originally posted by Administrator:
I liken it to a Greek cook using a Greek cookbook to prepare food for his or her Greek family. This Greek cook may greatly admire the Latin cookbook that the Latins have prepared for themselves ...
Excellent - This will remain with me forever.


-ray
Page 6 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3