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I really struggle with this issue. I *feel* like communion with Rome is important but I don't intellectually if I understand why it's important.

So why is it important to be in communion with Rome?

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Because Rome is the seat of the succesor of St. Peter. St. Peter was the head of the apostolic college, the Pope is the head of the episcopal college. Christ wants unity for His Church and the Pope is the visible sign and locus for that unity.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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Dear Deacon Lance,

In reference to your response to Jennifer I think that it would be significant to mention that the Bishop of Rome is believed by those in communion with Rome to be the Vicar of Christ as well as a "visible sign and locus for that unity."

If this is to be accepted why is it that there are 25,000 to 30,000 different denominations who are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome around today that are the result of the reformation? Do keep in mind that many of these folk�s ancestors used to be in communion with Rome. These folk's did not find the Bishop of Rome to be a source of unity, as they did not agree with what Rome was doing under the direction of the Pope like the selling indulgences. How in the world could the Vicar of Christ ever come up with such a notion? So I ask you this, how was the Bishop of Rome the locus of unity in reference to the reformation? Could one argue that it was really Luther's fault for releasing a rebellious spirit by not being obedient to the Bishop of Rome�s idea�s and practices?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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Dear Matthew,

Well, in an ideal world, the Pope of Rome would be in communion with the Orthodox Church - and you would then be one of the most ardent Papalists around!

No?

Alex

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Dear Jennifer,

I've asked that question many a time myself.

And I think the answer to it is one that is very personal - there is no "one size fits all" for Eastern Christians (the West is a different story).

I think we begin with the reasons for NOT being in communion with Rome.

Why? Because the early Church until the Schism of East and West (whenever we date it exactly and I don't think there can be an exact date) did acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome and as John Meyendorff and others have said, the Petrine Ministry was indeed the expression of the Church's unity.

So if you answer "I strongly agree" to these points, I think it would be an indication that you should not be in communion with Rome:

1) Rome has fallen into heresy and is therefore cut off from the Body of Christ (as of 1054 or afterwards).

2) The moral teachings of the Pope are too onerous and legalistic - we have the Councils.

3) The current Pope sets a bad Christian example.

4) The teaching of papal jurisdiction contradicts Eastern Christian ecclesiology.

5) Papal authority is too absolutist.

6) The papal teaching of infallibility contradicts my understanding of the inerrancy of the Church.

7) There is too much power and charism placed in one bishop, namely, the pope.

8) The Pope is not the only successor of St Peter - all bishops are. He is a first among equals only.

9) There is no evidence to suggest that the Pope ever had authority over other Churches, including moral, teaching authority.

10) To submit to the Pope is an anachronistic, medieval idea that has no place in the modern world. Besides, it places the Eastern CHurches' patrimony at risk, as has happened with the Latinization of the EC Churches.

After you ask yourself these questions and face your own feelings and beliefs as honestly and openly as possible, give yourself to prayer.

And may God be with you, wherever you go!

Alex

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Matthew,

Schism has existed in the Church from the time of the Apostles, should we blame them also for the actions of heretics and schismatics? That individuals fail in their office, as many popes, patriarchs and bishops have, is not an arguement that the office should not exist. Some use the same arguement you are articulating in condemning the office of bishop. As for indulggences please do not repeat Protestant errors and fiction about them. Please see:
http://www.catholic.com/library/myths_about_indulgences.asp

The Catholic Church teaches that all bishops are vicars of Christ. The Pope in his role as Supreme Pontiff and the Servant of the Servants of God embodies in a unique way as the successor of St. Peter.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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Dear Deacon Lance,

Do I error in understanding that indulgences had been sold?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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Here we go again, I did not put forth and argument that the office of a Bishop should not exist, irrespective of how some other people use the premise. You seem to have imported understandings to what I have written that are not there. How did I repeat an error about indulgences, they do exist you know. As you have stated the unique role of the Bishop of Rome is different than other Bishops for no other Bishop is in the infallibility mode in the same way I think no matter how you might codify such things.

I should have known better.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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Jennifer, I also have and continue to struggle with this, sometimes on a daily basis.

We are all told the rote answer that Fr. Deacon Lance gave in catechism and in the seminary, but it often simply doesn't hold water with me anymore, and all the EWTN justification in the world on paper doesn't satisfy me.

It is something in your heart, often that cannot be put into adequate words. As Alex says, it is a very personal thing.

This idea of the definition that Fr. Deacon Lance gives is simply not the idea of the early Church. There was a much simpler monarchia, one of love and desire for unity and EQUALITY of the churches, and not one of montanist authority and structure. Rome was first among equals, not the montanist authority such as we see in the 19th century.

I am in communion because I want to be, and not because I have to be. Atrocities have been committed against Easterns in the name of Rome, and vice versa. All have sinned.

We both indeed need each other. Orthodoxy needs primacy, as the lack of agreement and sometimes even communion between jurisdictions has borne out. Afanasiev, Schmemann and Meyendorff anmd others have all written about this need.

The famous Russian philisopher Vladimir Soloviev concluded that there was mutually nothing between us being in union, only a mutual lack of will to forgive and understand the other, like family members who had long ago stopped speaking with each other.

But primacy is not some magical panacea. Primacy has not guaranteed liturgical consistency and orthodoxy in the west, especially in the last 30-40 years. That is a very frightening thing to the Eastern mind who takes most seriously the maxim of St. Prosper of Aquitane "lex orandi, lex credendi".

Even theological orthodoxy is not necessarily assured with primacy, as there are priests saying things from the pulpit in Roman churches that are questionable at best (I've heard some of those myself), and you will find their names in good standing in the diocesan rolls.

Primacy also needs as a full brother or sister the faithful attachment to liturgical and theological orthodoxy. One cannot debate the tenacity of Orthodoxy in keeping to the teachings of the First Seven Ecumenical Councils and very faithfully preserving liturgical tradition.

I am very much more sympathetic to the Orthodox concerns about unity as a Greek Catholic, that being my mother church from which I am somewhat estranged, than I am about trying to justify an absolute primacy given the current liturgical, spiritual and theological state one often finds the Roman Church embroiled in.

But every game needs an umpire. As Afanasiev observed, the need for a first among equals to decide the disputes of his brothers is sorely needed to keep Orthodox Christianity united. An umpire is NOT a dictator, but one who has the authority, will, and love to step in and "make the call", and then step back out and let the game continue.

With the rise of increased secularism, anti-Christian movements and religions, sometimes radical and violent, we so much do need each other as churches of Apostolic Succession.

We do not need nor will tolerate a return to an ultra-montane primacy of a Pio Nono. All things considered, I would almost surely not be in communion with Rome if this sort of "primacy" was returned.

As a Greek Catholic, I am in communion with Rome more because I want to be, and not because I feel I have to be or forced to be. That being said even when Rome has not always honored her part of the bargain from the decrees of Union.

The conciliar approach of the Latin Church since Vatican II along with her greater outreach to Eastern Christians, both in communion and not in communion with Rome, has been a personal source of great hope with me. With that impetus I pray we can move towards glorious days of more full Christian union. "So that all may be one"...

Diak, longing for Constantine, Justinian, Theodosius.... smile

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Dear Diak,

Yes, I'm for a Byzantine-style monarchy too! wink

What did you think of my ten points above?

The administrator might say I'm just trying to call attention to myself.

Perhaps thats true . . . prelest is so insidious, you know!

Alex

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Subdeacon Randolph,

I am sorry my reply was lacking in your sight. Perhaps it was rote but it is what I believe and it is what the Catholic Church teaches. That is not to say I do not have questions and problems about how the primacy is exercised. But at the end of the day I do believe St. Peter had a special function beyond that of the other Apostles and that function is passed on to his successors. And I do also believe the early Church believed this. I agree it is a primacy based on love and service and not one of monarchy and exaltation. However, the primacy must include authority or it is no primacy at all.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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As one who feels a tremendous attraction to Orthodoxy, and who's head spins at the arguments and counterarguments, I always come down to the fact that Rome has held to the Apostolic teaching on contraception, against widespread opposition from her own people, as living proof that she is shielded from error in her teaching office. This does not at all mean that this authority has always been wielded wisely, nor that there is not widespread dissent and error among her members, but she has held to this ancient moral teaching, and Orthodoxy, in any authoratative way, has not.

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Dear Daniel,

I've no problem with what you've said.

But what if one comes up against RC theologians and priests who privately support contraception and say so in confessions?

Does the shield not apply to Rome's priests or to Rome alone?

Alex

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"You will know them by their fruit."

Which Christian church is the largest?
Which Church has the most hospitals?
Which church hs the most orphanages?
Which church has the most schools?
Which church has the most universities?
Which church offers the most relief aid?
Which church offers the sacraments to the most people?

The church that Christ built on Peter, the Rock, and the apostolic college. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it. No bad popes, no pedophile clergy, no unjust wars, no scandal. Nothing that man or Evil can do will destroy the Church of Jesus Christ.

God bless our separated churches. God's grace is found in them. May we be united as Christ prayed.
"Love one another."

Paul
(just had to get that off my chest)

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Quote
Originally posted by paromer:
"You will know them by their fruit."

Which Christian church is the largest?
Which Church has the most hospitals?
Which church hs the most orphanages?
Which church has the most schools?
Which church has the most universities?
Which church offers the most relief aid?
Which church offers the sacraments to the most people?
Paul
(just had to get that off my chest)
Certainly, "most" is not the be all and end all. The proofs of the Church are not based on a "majority" of this and that. The Orthodox Church does ALL of the above things along with Catholic Christians. One upmanship is not needed either.

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