|
0 members (),
344
guests, and
39
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,393
Posts416,749
Members5,993
| |
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461 Likes: 1
Member
|
OP
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461 Likes: 1 |
Dear Friends, while doing some research on Protestant proselytization in Eastern Europe, specifically Russia and Ukraine, I came upon this "manual" for proselytization. It is very interesting that aspects of the Orthodox faith that draw one closer to God, the mystery, icons, sacraments, theosis, apophatic theology, etc. are considered to be "barriers of faith" in this Protestant approach which tries to convince the potential convert that only a "personal relation" will bring them to Christ. From this perspective, it seems to imply the faith of one thousand plus years that inspired the envoys of St. Volodymyr to say, "We knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth...for this we know, that God dwells there with men" was not a "real" faith or inspired a real conversion of St. Volodymyr. For me it was enlightening to see the organized theological approach taken by the Protestant evangelicals in dealing with proselytizing Russia or Ukraine. And it demonstrates that the Protestants have definite proselytization plans for not only the unchurched but also those already professing to be Orthodox (which by extension would also apply to Greek Catholics). Sometimes it helps to read the other team's playbook to help plan your own strategy. The link is here: www.namb.net/evangelism/iev/PDF/ [ namb.net] BB_E_Orthodox_Manual.pdf Subdeacon Randolph, a sinner
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186 |
Diak,
A page popped up saying that I was not authorized to see this page. I don't know why.
At any rate, most protestants know virtually nothing about the Church. Their ignorance is appalling. If they did not have money to back their efforts they would be laughable. Sadly, they have much money.
Dan Lauffer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,729 Likes: 23
John Member
|
|
John Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,729 Likes: 23 |
The URL Dial posted didn't get displayed correctly. Try: www.namb.net/evangelism/iev/PDF/BB_E_Orthodox_Manual.pdf [ namb.net] I've seen the manual before. While the Southern Baptists are incorrect in all of their assumptions about Orthodoxy they do a decent job in pointing out the problems in the spiritual lives of many Christians and people who call themselves Christians in the traditionally Orthodox countries. We could learn from this.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,729 Likes: 23
John Member
|
|
John Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,729 Likes: 23 |
Catholic Man,
We can learn from these people. The fact that they come to such conclusions about Eastern Christians suggests that we need to build up our skills in communicating the Gospel. Rather then getting angry with these folks, what can we do to help them understand and lead them into the fullness of the Church? I think that this would be the more profitable discussion here.
Admin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186 |
Administrator,
I fully agree with you. Though it is humorous how my Catholic friends are amazed at my willingness to visit door to door it is sad and appalling that they are not willing to do similar things, for the most part, to share the good word. But some are doing so. We are receiving some converts.
Dan Lauffer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 225
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 225 |
Protestants have been part of the spiritual landscape of the Slavic nations for hundreds of years, including Mennonites and Lutherans in Greater Russia and Ukraine, so-called "bogomils'" in Bulgaria and Bosnia, and even Old Believers turned Anabaptist or Studen in Siberia.
None of these Protestants were forced to convert. They did so--willingly--to satisfy a need that wasn't being met by Orthodoxy or Catholicism, just as millions in Latin America have left Catholicism for Protestantism.
Wouldn't it be more productive to concentrate on identifying the "needs?"
Abdur
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461 Likes: 1 |
I agree with you, Admin. There is a hunger in these countries and in many cases the Protestants are able to capitalize on that hunger and feed it in their own theologically unique way. The lack of catechesis amongst much of the populace is also manifesting itself with the success of evangelical sects in mission work in Russia and Ukraine
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,729 Likes: 23
John Member
|
|
John Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,729 Likes: 23 |
Dan,
It is wonderful that you go door to door to share the Good News and invite people into our Byzantine Catholic Church. It is a tremendous witness not only to the people you meet but also to the people in our parishes. I think the issue here may be not that our people are unwilling to do similar things but rather that they have never been taught of the need for such witnessing. In our historical cultures most everyone in the community was already part of the Church, even if they were not all that active. I think that here in America we built on that mindset. First we organized as ethnic Greek Catholics (a most necessary thing for those who moved to America from elsewhere). Then we sort of saw ourselves as second class Catholics and left the job of evangelization to the Latin Church. Now it is time that we called upon our fellow Byzantine Catholics to take the message of Jesus Christ to everyone and invite them to become Byzantine Catholic.
Keep up the good work!
Admin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 49
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 49 |
Brothers and Sisters,
I cannot resist the urge to throw in my two cents on this topic. I was born and bred an evangelical, and am very grateful for the scriptural foundation I received. It is ironic, I suppose, that as I write this, a cousin of mine is working in Sofia, Bulgaria toward the establishment of protestant churches. In another life (figuratively speaking!) I was also involved with numerous protestant mission groups in eastern and western Europe.
How amazing it is to me that we who enjoy all the riches of the historic church and its traditions are so poor in the knowledge of and love for sacred scripture. Of course, I can enjoy and worship at an eastern liturgy or Latin mass without any substantial homily included, but how sad to find myself in exactly that situation so very often. Protestants learn "the Word" because it's all they have, but even our priests (let alone the laity!) rarely seem to find scripture study and homily preparation a worthwhile use of their time!
Isn't it the duty of the shepherd to feed the flock? How sad to see a priest who feels he does his congregation a favor by giving them a two minute milquetoast homily and letting them go. We need some fire in the belly, and some meat on the plate! St. Paul discoursed on the scriptures and fed the flock until late into the night. He exhorted Timothy to preach the word,"in season and out of season."
To paraphrase Edmund Burke, the only thing necessary for protestants to triumph is for the historic church to do nothing. Too often, at least in terms of explaining the scriptures, "nothing" is exactly what's happening.
And then we have the gall to be offended by their "evangelism?" Show them that you love and know the scripture, and you completely disarm them: you may even win them over. We need these people to be building the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
Respectfully,
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186 |
Prodigal,
I must agree with you. It must be that Father Loya is an exception. He is one of the best preachers I have ever heard.
Dan Lauffer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 443
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 443 |
Dan,
Doesn't that drive you crazy? I have heard Fr.s' homilies he is excellent, as with our Priest (he give retreats)I wish that we could provide them a larger audience. A quality cable show where you can put together a few homilies might work. They have classes at the cable company where they will teach you and let you use the equipment, but I at the present I don't have the time to go and learn this.
Nicky's Baba
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 788
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 788 |
Unfortunately, as much as we Orthodox (and some sympathetic Catholics) have an image of "Holy Russia". Without ignoring the terrible harm done during the Communist period, in many ways we are reaping some of the failings from the Czarist period.
British Protestants were actually the first to evangelize certain parts and native tribes of Siberia. We Orthodox left these people without the Light of the Gospel well into the 19th century, regardless of whatever claims of 'canonical territory'. Some of this had to do with the regretable Church-State relationship were evangelization of Alaska (with the side benefit of securing Russian political authority) took priority over Siberia.
We cannot change history. But let us not forget to learn from our mistakes.
Axios
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 60
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 60 |
Read this from: http://www.gospelcom.net/bgc/emis/bookreviews/bookreviews99.htm Ethnic Realities and the Church: Lessons from Kurdistan (A history of mission work: 1668-1990).
By Robert Blincoe.
Presbyterian Center for Mission Studies, 1605 E. Elizabeth St., Pasadena, CA 91104-2721, 1998, 263 pp., $12.95.
Missionaries in Kurdistan from 1668-1990? Perhaps 200! Missionaries to the Kurds at that time? Fewer than 10. And �in those exceptional moments when missionaries did work with Kurds, death brought their work to an end.�
The Great Experiment. �All right, missionaries, this is our strategy: In our ministry in Kurdistan, we�ll start with the peoples who are nominally Christian. We�ll evangelize them. Then surely they will turn to their Muslim neighbors and introduce them to Christ. Undoubtedly the best way to reach this dark land is to begin with those people who already acknowledge Jesus . . . . �
And so it was for 322 years in that rugged part of the world known as Kurdistan. Missionaries worked among the Armenians, Syriac Orthodox, Assyrian, and Chaldean Christians while the Kurds continued to live and die in darkness. The only true �friends� that the Kurds had were the mountains of Kurdistan, which separate them from their neighboring enemies, the Turks, Arabs, and Persians.
But the Great Experiment failed. Although the nominal Christians in Kurdistan were evangelized, they did not and have not evangelized the Muslim Kurds who share their land and lifestyle. Rather, they despised them. �Inviting Muslims into the Messianic feast is not on the to-do list for the church in Kurdistan� (p. 196).
The questions remain: Who then should reach out to the Kurds in evangelism and discipleship? Outsiders. Us. And how do we reach the Kurds, since we are so �foreign� to them? After centuries of trial and error, and seeing no fruit, we must learn from the mistakes of our predecessors. We must be willing to prepare ourselves to meet the challenge of reaching a people so long in darkness. Author Robert Blincoe gives us several suggestions. Missionaries who go to the Kurds need to have a heart devoted to Christ and be well prepared in the areas of language learning, hospitality, Kurdish culture, and the sufferings of Christ.
Roger Cumberland, one of the few missionaries to the Kurds, once wrote, �the one in the deepest darkness is the one that most needs the light� (p. 163).
�Reviewed in the April, 1999 issue of EMQ by Cherie Rempel, International Missions church planter, Alexandria, Va.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23
Fr. Dc. John Junior Member
|
|
Fr. Dc. John Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23 |
Originally posted by Axios:
Unfortunately, as much as we Orthodox (and some sympathetic Catholics) have an image of "Holy Russia". Without ignoring the terrible harm done during the Communist period, in many ways we are reaping some of the failings from the Czarist period.
Axios This bespeaks a very real point which I haven't seen made yet, and that is that - using the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church as an example - the Communist's have persecuted and outlawed the Church for so long, the 'bunker' mentality of our clergy and parishioners is what was fostered - not evangelism. Our Church hid in the forests, caves, and homes for the longest time - too afraid to 'make joyfully known the Good News.' They literally lived their faith in secret and, as a result, have absolutely no experience or history of evangelization. Hopefully, things may now change.
|
|
|
|
|
