I have been Orthodox 4 years and have never heard this mentioned before. A friend of mine who often visits St. Anthony's G.O. Monastery in Florence, AZ told me this story related by Elder Ephraim: That the elder had a vision of his father in hell, and began to pray for him. At first he saw his father in extreme torment. Later after many prayers he saw his father merely "locked in a cell." Finally after saying more prayers the elder had a vision of his father in heaven.

Pastors, theologians, help me out! Is this an actual teaching of Orthodoxy? If it is then I certainly won't deny it, as I believe the Church is led by the Spirit and her teachings are all true.

But I see a problem with this. IF we can pray the damned out of hell, why can't I just sluff off my own spiritual journey in hopes that I too will be delivered in this way?
2. If this is true then could not all of the damned be released from hell by prayers?

Elder Ephraim, I am told, is a truly holy man who has clairvoyant gifts and has reached a high spiritual state. I do not mean to question him, but I have never heard this teaching before.

Personally, I think that the 'hell' was more of a state of purgatory. That is why we pray for the dead. Just don't mention that word to any Orthodox, but it makes perfect sense to me.

You may want to visit our recent discussions on Purgatory.

God bless,
Alice

Alice is right on. The orthodox Fathers, in accordance with Scripture, teach that the hell of the damned is eternal. Consequently, damned souls cannot be released by prayer (or any other means).

On the other hand, souls can be delivered from the flames of purgation by the prayers of the living. This state is what westerners call Purgatory.

LatinTrad

Come to think of it another thing comes to mind. In the life of Bl. Euphemia of Serbia, she mentions having prayed for the soul of a sister who "did not find mercy with the Lord." That would not mean purgatory, but hell. Like Elder E she prayed for the nun's soul until she saw a vision of her in heaven.

What does your pastor say about this?

My opinion, for what it's worth...is that the elder's father was in purgatory or whatever you wish to call the purifying state after death...and by his prayers, he gave him the comfort and conpanionship and help that was needed to bring him completely into the Light of God's grace. Because in the Gospel, Our Lord says (when speaking about Lazarus): "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." (Luke 16, vs. 26) But THE most important thing to be learned from this would seem to be: that prayers for the departed are of GREAT value, thus the words from the Bood of Maccabees: "It is a good and profitable thing to pray for the dead."

May the Lord have mercy upon all of those who have died in faith and with the hope of Resurrection!

In His great mercy,
+Fr. Gregory

There is no doubt elder Ephraim has had an impact on monasticism in North America. I am not sure however that all agree on his spiritual direction of lay folks. You should ask around, I think you would get differing opinions.

What you relate is a private revelation regarding which the Church, AFAIK, takes no position.

One could ask our RC brothers and sisters whether certain promises made in private revelations such as the ones regarding the wearing of the Brown Scapular (a recent topic) would result in the same thing you posit. The "Sabbatine privilege" could be exaggerated to say "I'll do as I please as long as I am careful to wear (or maybe even just die with it on) the Brown Scapular." Obviously that is not consonant with the Faith. I think to say you can pray someone out hell is similarly not consonant with the Faith.

I would say there are various options here, the foremost being the advice of your pastor/spritual father, after that:
1. It was a private revelation to the seer with no meaning to us.
2. It reveals the need to pray for the dead in a way that the seer (and perhaps we) could understand. Like on Mt. Tabor, He revealed himself to His disciples inasmuch as they could bear.

T

A little Orthodox humor: There were 2 charwomen scrubbing cobblestones in Red Square outside Lenin's Tomb. One said to the other, "Do you think Lenin is in heaven?" The other replied, "Of course he is! His mother was Orthodox!"

Tony, But remember always that there are requirements that go WITH the Sabbatine Privilege:

The conditions for the gaining of the privilege are of such a kind as justify a special trust in the assistance of Mary. It is especially required of all who wish to share in the privilege that they faithfully preserve their chastity (according to their state in life), and recite devoutly each day the Little Hours of the Blessed Virgin. However, all those who are bound to read their Breviary, fulfil the obligation of reciting the Little Hours by reading their Office. Persons who cannot read must (instead of reciting the Little Hours) observe all the fasts prescribed by the Church as they are kept in their home diocese or place of residence, and must in addition abstain from flesh meat on all Wednesdays and Saturdays of the year, except when Christmas falls on one of these days. The obligation to read the Little Hours and to abstain from flesh meat on Wednesday and Saturday. In other words, those who would wish to claim this privilege must lead a HOLY LIFE (keeping ALL the commandments of God and the Church) and fulfill the usual conditions for Confession and Holy Communion. Not such an easy task this!

In Mary's service,
+Fr. Gregory

Amen to what Fr. Gregory wrote.

The Elder whom the O.P referred to is not the only one. There have always been a few people, now and in the past, who have seen the souls being purified in the next world, and who have been asked to pray for them, and who have seen the progress of those souls as a result of prayer.

I’m not Orthodox, but maybe these words will help the O.P.

Hell is forever. So too is Heaven.

However, there is a temporary state of purification for those who are righteous but not yet pure enough for Heaven. The Roman Catholic Church calls that “Purgatory,” and Roman Catholics tend to think of it as a state of purification and punishment. The Orthodox Church does not (to the best of my knowledge) have any formal name for it. However (to the best of my knowledge), the Orthodox tend to think of it more as state of purification than punishment. And so on: East and West of the Church often have different understandings of the same things. Nevertheless, both East and West have the same basic idea. There is a temporary state of purification for souls who are righteousness enough (by God’s grace) to escape Hell but who are not yet pure enough to enter Heaven.

Also, both East and West teach that the living can help the souls who are being purified in the next world.

I don’t know the specifics of what the Orthodox Church teaches about praying for the dead, so I won’t address it here. However, I know that Orthodox Christians do pray for the dead.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that people can help souls who are being purified (including those in Purgatory) by praying for them, by doing penance, by almsgiving and by offering the Mass / the Divine Liturgy for them. The good that is done is not by our efforts by the grace of God acting in us and through us.

In the Roman Catholic Church, there are also indulgences. These can only be applied to oneself or to souls in Purgatory. Basically, indulgences are prayers and good works that the Church blesses, by its binding and losing authority, to be especially helpful for souls: here and hereafter.

The Roman Catholic Church has greatly revised its understanding of indulgences since the Second Vatican council. The old idea of prayers, etc., being the equivalent of days of penance has been abolished. Instead, there is simply trust in the grace of Jesus, which we are open to receiving either partially (a "partial indulgence") or a totally (a "plenary indulgence"). In other words, Jesus is the plenary indulgence; and if we are totally open to Him, we are totally open to His forgiveness and healing and love. And if we are only partially open to Him, by being partially attached to sin, we are only partially open to His gifts of mercy and of love. Either way, we can receive His mercy and love for ourselves, and we can ask Him to apply His mercy and love to those who have already passed on.

The indulgences themselves have been greatly revised too. There are still some prayers which are formally "indulgenced." However, the main emphasis now are four general approaches to being open to Jesus and His mercy: prayer, penance, almsgiving and witnessing to the Faith. These are officially called "four general grants" of indulgences. If a person does anything within those categories in a moral way and with genuine faith, there is greater unity with Jesus thereby. And that greater unity, in turn, opens the soul to more of Jesus and His grace: for ourselves and (if we ask) for those who are already in the world to come.

For more information on the Roman Catholic view of Purgatory and indulgences, see
The Catholic Catechism, section 1030-1032 at http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm;
also see
http://www.integrity.com/homes/mgross/indulg.html, and http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/APINDULG.HTM .

In sum, It is the Eucharist that is medicine for the sick soul. Jesus is the Eucharist, through the Holy Spirit, from and unto the Father. When we live more in union with the Trinity, by living more Eucharisticly, by living more truly the Gospel, we give God more room to dwell within us and to act through us for our good and for the good of the neighbor: here and hereafter. In living the Gospel, all of life becomes an epiclesis. Praying for those in the world to come is another example --and opportunity-- of that.

Hope this helped.

--John

I don't claim to have the fulness of truth personally, or to know the complete answer to the original question.

However, I would suggest two points to ponder. 1) WE cannot pray someone out of hell - but I am unaware of any scriptural injunction to avoid praying for the dead, and the Church certainly does that. 2) The mercy of God is infinite, but we may not dictate it. God Himself knows how and upon whom to have mercy. So our prayer should always be characterized by humility and self-abasement.

(I did not claim that I myself practice these virtues anywhere nearly as often as I should! But so much the worse for me.)

Incognitus

This relates well with the topic in Town Hall: Akathist for the repose of those who have fallen asleep.
That akathist mentions the skull of a deceased heathen addressing St Macarius and advising him that his prayers aid even those in hell.

Origen taught that the damned, after a long period of purification, would eventually enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He based his belief on Acts 3:21. Among those who subscribed to this doctrine was St Gregory of Nyssa.

Unless I'm mistaken, isn't there going to be a judgement and a second death. Could it be that those people were in a 'temporary' hell?

I also recall in the prophetic vision of Saint John Kronstadt, that when Saint Seraphim showed him the piles of names of prayers for the dead outside the churches, Saint John asked, "but who will pray for them". Saint Seraphim answered, the angels will.

Also, didn't Saint Therese ask that she not go to heaven, because she wanted to remain in a 'state' (for want of a better word), where she can be in a position to do good in this world?

As for the Eucharist, and the sacraments, then what about the devout Evangelicals, especially some elderly black women, who even Father Groechel, (definitely a saint) said puts his RCC women to shame.

I think everything falls within our Lord's wisdom. He leans towards us and guides us in whichever way we are able to proceed towards Him.

Zenovia

Hi Zenovia,

I certainly agree with your last statement. St. Peter observed the same thing when he spoke with Cornelius. "In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears Him and acts uprightly is acceptable to Him." (Acts: 10, 34-35) I did not mean to imply in my previous post that people who don't have the Eucharist or even the Gospel are lost to God, and I apologize if I gave that impression.

However, I think Christ comes to complete, correct and perfect all truths, for He is Truth. Hence, St. Peter did not stop with the above quote when he spoke with Cornelius. Rather, he continued by sharing the Gospel. In other words, I don't think non-Catholics, non-Orthodox, or non-Christians are lost; but they are instead drawn by Christ to the fullness of Himself by whatever righteous means the Father wills and the Holy Spirit directs.

As for the rest of your post, I respect your knowledge about the views of some of the saints and sages regarding the eternity of hell. Yet, I must defer to the views of Jesus Christ on this matter. Jesus Christ clearly stated in several places in the Gospel that hell is forever, and so too is eternal life. (For example, Matthew 25:46) He who gives us life and freedom also gives us the free will to accept these or to reject these, forever.

Finally, however, I see in the Gospel that Christ does not want anyone to go to hell; rather, He wants all to have eternal life. (John: 3,17) Thus, indeed, is the Paschal mystery crowning the mystery of His life. From that, and from the tradition and the witness of the saints, it seems that God is most eager to extend every possible mercy and grace to us: to save us from hell, to sanctify us in this life, and to purify us (if necessary) in the next life, for the eternity of Life with Him. Hence, by His most gracious love, all becomes an epiclesis when we let Him dwell within us and through us.

--John

Dwight wrote:
This relates well with the topic in Town Hall: Akathist for the repose of those who have fallen asleep.

Here is the link to that discusion.
http://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001804;p=2

Current Orthodox theology says that we experience a foretaste of heaven and hell...until the Final Judgement. As Zenovia said, we cannot forget the Final Judgement.

Again- it sounds like all the same thing to me in the end, although defined differently, or not defined at all, whatever the case may be.

Remember that our Lady said to the children at Fatima: pray for the poor souls in Purgatory.

So, whatever we call it, are prayers for the dead are efficacious until the Final Judgement.

In Christ,
Alice

I'm not sure this is an area to spend too long on having read warnings about speculating on the possible emptying of hell or redemption of the devil and his angels. However I did feel a certain warmth reading these posts from an ROCOR priest on the C.A. forum
(I'm sure he won't mind me copying them across)

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=425420&postcount=50
http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=425422&postcount=51

Here is a story for you from an old Patericon (a Patericon is a book of the collected sayings of the monks of old.)

Now, don't swoop on me..!! I know the theological
pitfalls in this story -- but I *still* like it so much!
It resonates in my old Irish heart.

...With the Sign of the Cross, the old monk Abba
Joseph trapped in his cell a dark and miserable demon
who had come to tempt him. "Release me, Father, and let
me go," pleaded the demon, "I will not come to tempt you
again". "I will gladly do that, but on one condition,"
replied the monk. "You must sing for me the song that
you sang before God's Throne on high, before your fall."

The demon responded, "You know I cannot do that; it will
cause me cruel torture and suffering. And besides, Father,
no human ear can hear its ineffable sweetness and live,
for you will surely die." "Then you will have to remain
here in my cell," said the monk, "and bear with me the
full struggle of repentance." "Let me go, do not force me
to suffer," pleaded the demon." "Ah, but then you must
sing to me the song you sang on high before your fall
with Satan."

So the dark and miserable demon, seeing that there was
no way out, began to sing, haltingly, barely audible
at first, groping for words long forgotten. As he sang,
the darkness which penetrated and surrounded him began
slowly to dissipate. The song grew ever louder and
increasingly stronger, and soon the demon was caught
up in its sweetness, his voice fully lifted up in worship
and praise. Boldly he sang of the power and the honour
and the glory of the Triune God on High, Creator of the
Universe, Master of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible
and invisible. As the song sung on high before all ages
resounded in the fullness of its might, a wondrous and
glorious light penetrated the venerable Abba's humble cell,
and the walls which had enclosed it were no more. Ineffable
love and joy surged into the very depths of the being
of the radiant and glorious angel, as he ever so gently
stooped down and covered with his wings the lifeless body
of the old hermit who had liberated him from the abyss of hell.

-oOo-

Now we all know that it is the common opinion of theologians that the fallen angels have had their eternal fate decided, and have irrevocably chosen for God or against God.

So the theologians certainly have their common opinion but the Saints, always much better theologians, may be at odds with them.

For example, Saint Isaac the Syrian (7th century)wrote:

"What is a merciful heart? It is a heart that burns with love for the whole creation — for men, for birds, for beasts, for demons and for every creature."

Saint Isaac is not only wonderful and holy. He is also disturbing. I have no answers to this puzzle, but I do cherish the suspicion that our Lord expects us to mull it over a bit. Perhaps He has left us this Saint as a kind of gentle question mark placed over some of our certainties. Not over the essential ones, for Isaac himself is proof of those, but perhaps over others that we - not God - have declared certain.

What a wonderful post JGC. As I read the story of the fallen angel this Scripture came to mind.

Ephesians 5:7-15

7 Be ye not therefore partakers with them. 8 For you were heretofore darkness, but now light in the Lord. Walk then as children of the light. 9 For the fruit of the light is in all goodness, and justice, and truth; 10 Proving what is well pleasing to God:

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For the things that are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of. 13 But all things that are reproved, are made manifest by the light; for all that is made manifest is light. 14 Wherefore he saith: Rise thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead: and Christ shall enlighten thee. 15 See therefore, brethren, how you walk circumspectly: not as unwise...

Where the Light of Christ is the darkness of this world cannot remain. When the fallen angel was exposed to the Light of God he could no longer stay in darkness. Whether it is true story or not I don't know but it does bare strong reference to the Word of God. At one time before our Baptisms did our souls not look like as fallen angel appeared, dark? We entered the tomb with Christ to receive new life in Christ and our souls became white as snow. Just like the angel did as he sang once again the praises of God.

Thanks be to God!
Pani Rose

Indeed, Father. For that reason I wrote that the "'Sabbatine privilege' could be exaggerated." Perhaps you would be happier with "misunderstood."

I havn't taken time to read this but it might be interesting...

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/life_after_death.htm

Dear Friends,

Well, obviously you don't pay attention to other posts on this topic . . .

I put up the decision of a local Orthodox Council on this subject a few weeks ago.

The Council affirmed that the souls of the damned and the souls of those still requiring purification go to hades.

The souls of the damned stay there and the souls of the others, especially through the prayer of the Church, are eventually released from there and enter heaven.

That is what the synod affirmed when it gathered to deny purgatory as a separate "third place."

And you Orthodox Christians here - I'm surprised at you!

Alex

pray someone out of Hell? don't think it's possible. something else.does any one here know someone in Hell? how do you know they are there? I remember when Princess Diana (eternal rest) was killed, a friend of mine who was a student at Tennessee Temple told me that the princess was in Hell. I challenged him on that, and told him that it was no one's right to consign any one to Hell, even the Pope wouldn't do that (interesting thing to say to a Baptist) he backed off. at any rate, on the issue of the Pope, note that he would be quicker to consign someone to Heaven as a saint and intercessor for us at the throne of Grace, than to toss someone in to the Pit. None of us know what happens to the next person at the final division of Time, before she/he is launched into Eternity. we are to trust that there was a final reconciliation, and hope that the person is in Heaven, or at least Purgatory, if you want to do that there is a wideness in God's mercy that none of us can comprehend. don't write anyone off, just share Christ with the person, and hope and pray that she/he will come to Him in faith.so the idea of praying someone out of Hell is pointless, a mere waste of time to entertain such an idea.
Much Love,
Jonn

God's mercy being what it is (infinite, endless, etc.), I think it's safe to assume that no soul is beyond hope, or prayer.

Just assume EVERY deceased soul is in need of prayer -- if the one you're praying for doesn't need it, maybe it'll help someone else. Grace has a tendency to spread out.

Hello Dolly!

It's great that both East and West literally make a "business" of praying for the dead.

Every Saturday is a kind little "All Souls' Day" in the Eastern Church.

So what are you doing for Mardi Gras?

Alex

This Saturday is the first Saturday of the Souls. I think it is important that we attend atleast one of these services and offer the names of those who are 'fallen asleep' that we loved.

I am listening to a tape about Elder Paisios, an ascete of the Holy Mountain (reposed 1992), who was considered a saint while alive. The tape is in Greek and was given to my husband by an Elder he met while visiting the Holy Mountain.



I will try to relay it as I best I can as I understood it:

There was a certain woman who would seek out his counsel. She had a daughter. The woman was very stingy and when the daughter would ask her for some money to distribute to the poor, the mother would not give any. However, she did give to Elder Paissios for whatever he needed.

The stingy woman died. One night the woman's guardian angel came to Elder Paissios, and just like the tale of the ghosts of Christmas in Dicken's tale 'A Christmas Carol', the angel transported him to the grave of the woman and slid open the top. Elder Paissios said that without disgust or hesitation he stepped into the grave and hugged the half decomposed body of the woman, who cried out to him "Help me. Did I ever deny you when you asked?". Then the angel slid the top back onto the grave and transported him back to his cell. He prayed for the woman's soul.

Stories like this, from the holiest of men of monasticism through the ages, show us how important prayers for the dead are, so let's step up to the plate, and pray that our loved ones will also pray for us and remember us too.

One might also like to read the biography of one of my favorite saints: St. Xenia of Petersburg. Her completely selfless life of denial, homelessness and prayer after her young husband's unrepentent death (all for the sake of his soul)...it is said that God revealed to her his mercy on Colonel Andrei (St. Xenia's husband) at the end of her life.

--Alice

We know that God's mercy and the consequences of the Resurrection extend into Hell. As with many things in Orthodoxy, when we focus on the details and mechanisms of this rather than the mystery of it, we end up in strange and error-prone territory.

God's love extends into Hell and souls there are not beyond Redemption - all else is speculation.

The quintessential Orthodox response! It's moments like these that I am glad to be an Eastern Christian. Now if I could only get my mother's Roman Catholic side of the family to start thinking like this ...

Do we even know that anyone actually is in hell? Is it presumptuous of us to assume that anyone is? The question is therefore academic; we pray for the dead, because the Church has always prayed for the dead, assuming such prayer is efficacious because God is merciful, and his mercy endureth forever. So we have no choice but to pray for the dead, since we do not know if anyone is in hell or not.

"God's love extends into Hell and souls there are not beyond Redemption - all else is speculation."

Well isn't "souls there are not beyond Redemption" itself speculation then?

I have heard it said that death confirms one's eternal state because one does not have free will after death. Therefore, there is no repentance after death. The state of the soul is determined at death because its decision is final. It is not so much that God's love does not extend into hell. It is that the person has chosen to turn away from God's love, definitively, so that repentance simply isn't possible. The person damned is so because of their choice, confirmed in death, not because God has passed sentence upon judgement.

Now, I have no idea what the theology is behind this. I've heard it often enough, but don't know where this idea originates, or if it is even "orthodox".

Does anyone have any comment on this? Is this consonant with the beliefs of the Eastern tradition?
Thanks.

Not to mention the presumption that "time" anywhere in the afterlife ticks away concurrently with us here on Earth, if it even exists there at all in a way we would recognize it.

Since free will is an attribute of the divine nature with which man was endowed by God when He made man in his image and likeness, how could that attribute be taken from us by death?

It depends on your view of scripture as to whether it is speculation.

1 Peter 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

I wouldn't call it a speculation so much as a pious desire, one for which Gregory of Nyssa prayed, which makes it fine in my book.

Yes, this is a good point. So the question becomes, can we repent after death? Or more importantly, does anyone repent after death?

We can retain free will. Then doesn't this, then open up the possibility that one can reject God in Heaven, and thus can consign themselves to hell, even after they have been saved?

I think that the answer to this scenario should probably be the same answer to the scenario about repentance in hell, don't you think?

I don't know the answer. I'm looking for the wisdom of you, Stuart, as well as the others here, who often have much greater insight than me.

thanks

There are answers and speculations in greater detail to this question (including posts from a priest) at the beginning of this thread...

Alice

Rather than speculate, I prefer to pray that God makes it so.

God cannot make so, as God has deigned otherwise and he does not change his mind. The teaching of both the theologians and the Church on this point is quite clear, after we die we either go staight to hell, straight to heaven or to heaven via purgatory and we remain in that state for all eternity. The teaching is De Fide.

Christ is in our midst!! He is and alwasy will be!!

I'm glad that the God I know and love in Jesus Christ is a lot greater than the one you have described. God changed His Mind when Jonah walked through Ninevah for one example of this possibility. You see, mercy is at the heart of the Almighty's appraoch to us. And thank Him by His Holy Name or there wouldn't be anything like the Mystery of Confession wherein we all get a fresh start time and again.

I'd also like to know where you get the assertion that the Church teaches people go straight to Hell. Actually the Church teaches there is such a place but is very circumspect about speculating whether anyone has already landed there. So may I suggest you be careful of the sin of presumption in some of these areas.

Scripture has it somewhere as a question as to who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor or confidant. I, for one, don't claim to be so wise and am extremely grateful that mercy is His second attribute after love.

Bob

"and he (God) does not change his mind".

yeah He does. In the OT eating pork was forbidden; in the NT, it's allowed. God commanded all sorts of hair-raising bloody atrocities in the OT but in the NT, He forbids them.

Catholicism & Orthodoxy are the most optimistic relgions I know of, except when detoured off the track by human folly. I admit I entertain proclivities toward the apokatasis but I realise I don't have a doctrinal leg to stand on in this regard. All I have is pious hope.

You're going to get yourself nowhere in an argument with Stuart (nor with a great many other posters here, including me), by giving a lecture about what Rome says is De Fide. I assure, you, he's quite aware of which beliefs Rome has declared to be De Fide, as are most Catholic posters here (and a great many who are not Catholic). St. Gregory of Nyssa, among others, hoped for the salvation of all, and, well, he's a saint. I will continue to hope for and believe in universal reconciliation, in spite of what Rome has to say on the matter.

I think the vision Elder Ephraim had was of the lower parts of Purgatory, where souls sit at the gates of hell. I read a book called ''hungry souls'' and I am correct a friend came to a friend and said ''stop praying for me, I am in hell''.

Mystics are usually a law unto themselves. St.Symeon the theologian had many crazy ideas that it's a amazing how he managed to retain his sainthood. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware said this in his 12 dvd set on mystical theology.

Origen had the mad idea that even the devil will be redeemed at the end of the world.

St.Gregory of Nyssa seems to think we can pray for the souls in hell. But all of these sayings of the fathers such as the above were just an example of the extent of the gift of love they were given however much possibly misguided maybe?

I dunno but I would tend to disagree with Elder Ephraim that he prayed someone out of hell.

Wheely.

Coming in late to this discussion, but a couple observations.

1. God definitely doesn't "change his mind." Scripture speaks this way, but this is for our benefit, we cannot actually understand what this means except that we know God is unchangeable. That's really fundamental theology. God, when he forbade certain things in the Old Law, always knew they would not be forbidden in the New Law. He didn't "change His mind" because He doesn't learn, or grow, or make mistakes. He *always knew* that those in Nineveh would repent, and the "changing of His mind" is our way of seeing it, but God is un-changing.

2. So the eternity of Hell and eternal damnation is a revealed dogma, and God cannot change his mind. If Gregory of Nyssa prayed otherwise, I imagine it was because of his love and because this wasn't clear then. But I can hardly believe he would doubt this even though the teaching has become so clear since the time of the early Fathers. Perhaps he was just wrong.

If we can really follow Gregory of Nyssa on this over the clear teaching of the Church, why can't we follow some of Augustine's crazy ideas over the Church, and so on and so forth?

My view: believing in eternal Hell is difficult, but it's revealed, so I accept it. Also, God is glorified not only in His Mercy but also in His Justice.

Finally, I think we do have free will after we die, but nothing will change that free choice we make here in our lives on earth. The damned in hell freely choose to reject God and there is no time in Hell, they will eternally choose this. Those in Heaven have a free will perfected in Love and it is impossible for them to use their free will wrongly and reject God. They are still free, in fact moreso than we are.

Poster: danman916I have heard it said that death confirms one's eternal state because one does not have free will after death. Therefore, there is no repentance after death. The state of the soul is determined at death because its decision is final. It is not so much that God's love does not extend into hell. It is that the person has chosen to turn away from God's love, definitively, so that repentance simply isn't possible. The person damned is so because of their choice, confirmed in death, not because God has passed sentence upon judgment.

Now, I have no idea what the theology is behind this. I've heard it often enough, but don't know where this idea originates, or if it is even "orthodox".

Does anyone have any comment on this? Is this consonant with the beliefs of the Eastern tradition?

Give glory for God's Mercy!
In this response, I'm giving my personal impression, based on what I been taught, have read in what I consider credible, and Scripture.

I agree with Stuart that God doesn't take away free will. Your comment that one CHOOSES to reject God and chooses Hell compliments the argument that God's gift of free will continues through eternity. Consider someone who is bitter--they continue to get more bitter as time goes on, even though they know its making them miserable. And the more miserable they are the more bitter they get. I have experienced miserableness through painful toothaches. Surely the pains of Hell are hundreds of times more painful. So it is natural to assume they hate God in proportion to their suffering and fall deeper and deeper into the Abyss, rather than rising up out of it.

Scripture is neither Eastern nor Western, but the word of God. I don't know how Christ's parable, "The Rich Man and Lazarus" (Lk 16:19-31) could be any more explicit describing the finality of what most of us consider "Hell." So then, I have to call it neither Eastern nor Western theology, but Christian teaching. We have both eastern and western "theologians" who teach either no hell or a limited hell, but these are slim minority impressions to which we should not place great attachment. However, they do make interesting conversation and forum subjects.

Does this help your reflection?