The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Galumph, Leon_C, Rocco, Hvizsgyak, P.W.
5,984 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 456 guests, and 39 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,389
Posts416,722
Members5,984
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Dear Friends,

I think Russian Orthodox-Catholic brings up a fascinating and important point that bears considering here.

This is the whole matter of saints and the respective Particular Churches.

I've been known to get into trouble over this matter both here and at another site smile .

For example, I once referred to St Euphronia of Polotsk as a 'Ukrainian Saint' and I have every Belarus priest and layman within a 200 mile radius after me.

It would seem that the question of one's cultural/national identity and background is not the same as one's liturgical/ecclesial identity. One may only have one of the former but a number of the latter.

St Paissy Velichkovsky was a native of Poltava and even signed his name as such with great regularity. Yet, he is venerated variously as "St Paisius of Romania" and among the ten different cultural groups to which his disciples belonged ("Ukrainian" and "Carpathian" disciples distinguished themselves separately as such and there were even Chalcedonian Armenians among them).

The Kyivan Metropolia continued to include Belarus and Ukraine. Saints of Belarus were included in the Kyivan calendar, hierarchs from Kyiv laboured in Belarus and the Belarusyans glorified the Ukrainian St Yuri Konissky, Archbishop of Mogilev etc.

It was sufficient for a saint, of whatever cultural background, to work in a Church of another nation to earn him the right of citizenship there. Greek saints who lived or even simply reposed in Ukraine (like St Athanasius "the Sitting" of Poltava) were honoured as "Ukrainian Saints and Athanasius is the patron of Poltava, even though he died while travelling through Ukraine on his way home.

So therefore even Met. Andrew Sheptytsky and Pat. Josef the Hieroconfessor are legitimately future saints of the Russian Catholic Church, along with the newly glorified martyrs.

It is quite sufficient for St Theodor Romzha to have been involved in whatever a manner with plans to work in Russia for him to be numbered among Russian Catholic saints.

In addition, patron saints of countries, like St Barbara in Kyiv, somehow became "Ukrainian" or whatever over time as well. smile

Alex

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Likes: 1
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Likes: 1
Good point, Alex - the Ukrainian Catholics certainly claim St. Josphat of Polotsk, Velamin Rutsky, etc. who by today's geopgraphical standards would certainly not be considered to be of Galician provenance.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Dear Diak,

Actually it was Russian Orthodox-Catholic's point - and I know everyone here will want to join me in expressing our appreciation to him for gracing us with his presence here!

Alex

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,658
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,658
Is "Ecumenism" the reason why Exarch Josif Sokolsky of Bulgaria has never been glorified as a martyr or blessed by the Popes or venerated by Bulgarian Catholics?

I think his labour important as the leader of the first independent Bulgarian Church, even before the BOC was recognized as autocephalous. His death was very mysterious, some versions state that he died in a monastery in Odessa as a personal prissioner of the Czar and the MP. Other say he was shot by a Czarist soldier.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Dear Snoopers,

I think you would be the best candidate to represent Eastern Catholic interests at the Vatican!! smile

Seriously!

There are numerous cases of "Causes" of Eastern Catholic candidates that were stalled or put on hold indefinitely for all sorts of reasons, including "political-ecumenical."

The case of Meletius Smotritsky, the Orthodox Hierarch turned Catholic after he blamed himself for provoking people to kill Josaphat of Polotsk, is one - he was to have been beatified and an icon was written of him. But it all died down during the subsequent controversies over the Unia.

But His Holiness (I mean the Pope of Rome smile ) has beatified Eastern Catholics killed by Czarist troops - the Martyrs of Pratulyn about whom our poster Subdeacon Peter Siwicky has written a marvellous book.

And although Peter will disagree with me, the only reason the Pope did NOT beatify Andrew Sheptytsky during his visit in Ukraine was as the result of a petition to him from Poland's bishops not to do so at this time. EWTN, I believe, had a media release to this effect at the time.

This cast a shadow over the Pope's visit as the people there, otherwise wildly enthusiastic about the Pope being among them, could not understand the reasoning behind this.

Alex

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 113
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 113
Glory to God for all things!

Dear friends,

Alex is correct! I was trying to show that certain Greek Catholic Ukrainian and Rusyn/Ruthenian saints were active in the Russian Apostolate. Such Russian missionary work was often so prominent that Russian Greek Catholics are entitled to venerate them ( compose troparia, akathists, write icons, and saints lives, etc. ) in full accordance with the traditions of Russian Orthodoxy.

Such veneration of these Greek Catholics in no way detracts from their importance to the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches. I maintain that our Byzantine tradition is enriched by such varied veneration.

Thanks for the link, djs.

Holy Russian Orthodox-Catholic new martyrs and confessors, pray to God for us.


Holy Russian Orthodox-Catholic martyrs and confessors, pray to God for us.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 113
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 113
Dear Alex,

Your speculation regarding Russian veneration of Metropolitan Andrej and Patriarch Josyf is correct. Some Russian Greek Catholics already venerate him. I do. I do agree that veneration of Patr. Josyf can also be justified.

1) During his years in the USSR he did spiritually assist Russian Catholics. He used the Russian services in these intances.

2) After his exile from the USSR Patriarch Josyf did try to assert his authority over Russian Greek Catholic Church. He also published the most complete life of St. Leonid.


Holy Russian Orthodox-Catholic martyrs and confessors, pray to God for us.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Likes: 1
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Likes: 1
St. Andrey convened the first Russian Catholic synod in 1917 in Petrograd. He also extended his omophorion to several Russian Catholic priests and parishes, both Old and New Rite.

Unfortunately, because of his prison and later exile status, Patriarch Josyp was not able to continue the same level of fatherly support, althouth he provided much "under the table" support such as smuggling in prayer books, liturgical goods, ordaining priests, etc. which he had to do because of the Vatican Ostpolitik in vogue at the time.

Did you notice my avatar, Russian Orth-Cath? It's St. Leonid Federov in his episcopal vestments.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 113
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 113
Glory to God for all things!

Diak,

I knew about Metropolitan Andrej's missionary work in Russia. I did not know that Patriarch Joseph continued his support for Russian Greek Catholics in Russia after his departure from the USSR in 1963. It makes sense. I have also read that Metropolitan Volodymyr Sterniuk also provided for Russian Greek Catholics in the USSR. Perhaps he did so at the urging of Hieroconfessor Joseph?

Patriarch Joseph had quite a difficult time with diaspora Russian Greek Catholics. It seems that the leading Jesuits at the Oriental Institute and at the Russicum only wanted to pursue ecumenical relations with the Moscow Patriachate at the expense of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (i. e. tacit acceptance of the false 1946 Synod of Lvov.) These ecumenists ceased to pray for " the long suffering Russian land, " since religious persecution in the USSR stopped with the release of Patriarch Joseph in 1963!

Yes, Diak, I did notice your avatar. Where did you get it?

Holy Russian Orthodox-Catholic new martyrs and confessors, pray to God for us.


Holy Russian Orthodox-Catholic martyrs and confessors, pray to God for us.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,716
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,716
Quote
Originally posted by Russian Orthodox-Catholic:
[QB
These ecumenists ceased to pray for " the long suffering Russian land, " since religious persecution in the USSR stopped with the release of Patriarch Joseph in 1963!

Yes, Diak, I did notice your avatar. Where did you get it?

Holy Russian Orthodox-Catholic new martyrs and confessors, pray to God for us. [/QB]
I attended many Liturgies at the Russian Catholic CHurch in San Francisco in the 80's and always at the end of Liturgy, there was sung the prayer for the "longsuffering Russian land and it's Orthodox people"

Of course, this was a parish run by those "terrible" Jesuit ecumenists smile

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Dear Brian-Seraphim,

Those Jesuits were so terrible that Peter the Great preferred their company over that of Orthodox hierarchs. wink

Alex

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 348
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 348
Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
Good point, Alex - the Ukrainian Catholics certainly claim St. Josphat of Polotsk, Velamin Rutsky, etc. who by today's geopgraphical standards would certainly not be considered to be of Galician provenance.
Well, but are all present-day "Ukrainian Catholics" of "Galician provenance"? Personally
I have nothing to do with Galicia/Halychyna,
as I live in Lublin (territory of former Kholm
eparchy) and have had ancestors of many countries and regions (Lithuania, Byelorussia, Volhynia,
Germany, even probably Netherlands) but NOT
of Halychyna. Of course, I am not any saint. wink

BTW, St. Josaphat came from Volodymyr-Volyns'kyi,
now in Sokal' eparchy.

Sincerely,
subdeacon Peter

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 348
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 348
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

But His Holiness (I mean the Pope of Rome smile ) has beatified Eastern Catholics killed by Czarist troops - the Martyrs of Pratulyn about whom our poster Subdeacon Peter Siwicky has written a marvellous book.
It's just a small booklet, frankly speaking - nothing special.
Our Metropolitan is now considering promoting
of second cause - of martyrs from Dreliv (not
very far from Pratulin, killed a week earlier).


Quote

And although Peter will disagree with me, the only reason the Pope did NOT beatify Andrew Sheptytsky during his visit in Ukraine was as the result of a petition to him from Poland's bishops not to do so at this time. EWTN, I believe, had a media release to this effect at the time.
Well, I have known about two earlier protests
of Polish Latin Bishops, so I am not suprised
at all (BTW, I have not heard about this last
protest of 2001 Alex writes about). However,
it's not an easy thing to prepare proper documentation for such a giant as Metropolitan
Andrew was (I mean for instance theological opinion about his works, which are of many volumes) and our structures are weak, not quite
ready for overcoming such challenges. I know very
well what I am talking about. frown

Sincerely,
subdeacon Peter

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Dear Subdeacon Peter,

You raise an excellent point.

The Galicians have tended to dominate the UGCC with their perspectives for far too long.

This has really given our Church a tunnel vision.

The Church of Kyiv itself included many who were not of Ukrainian/Ruthenian identity and its saints number many non-Ukies or those not of Rus'.

The fact is, as you point out, that St Josaphat came from Volyn, the great western bastion of Kyivan Orthodoxy.

Alex

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391
Likes: 30
Dear Subdeacon Peter,

The "Visnyk" of Sts Volodymyr and Olha Parish once carried some articles about Andrew Sheptytsky and about Polish demonstrations against him - "Pan Sheptitski na lyatarnyu!"

I guess since Andrew was himself half-Polish, his Polish countrymen didn't take it kindly to him going over to the Ukrainian "Kabanie" eh?

Could you provide some more details about there Martyrs of Dreliv?

How many of them were martyred?

Alex

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2023). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5