www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Contemporary Orthodox Deaconesses?

Shestelle posted

"If the Patriarch of Constantinople has deemed it right to ordain a Deaconess or two, it is not up to us to condemn that action; or to discuss its right or wrongness;"
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With all due respect, Orthodox Christians DO have not only the right, but the obligation to condemn and discuss the rightness or wrongness of such an action.

I go back to the web posted letter that the Orthodox Patriarchs sent to Pope Pius IX when he invited them to participate in Vatican Council I. One of the things that sticks out in my mind that His Holiness' predecessors of blessed memory told Pius IX was THE PEOPLE ARE THE GUARDIANS OF THE FAITH. It seems if my Orthodox brethren are the guardians of their Holy Faith, they surely ought to have not only the right, but the obligation to speak out in its defense. And this should mean not only in theory, but in their liturgical practice.

Certainly the lively back and forth concerning liturgical issues large and small, displayed here on this Forum, shows that this impulse is alive and well.

My own interest stems from the focused desire to see Christ's prayer come to fulfillment in my lifetime, after almost a millenium of separation. I still believe that we must approach this type of thing together because we no longer live in separate countries that have no members of the other's Church present. Almost every country on earth has representatives of each of our Churches and unilateral moves in the present age simply place additional impediments to our goal of being one.

In Christ,

BOB

well Bob!

You could have stated my full thought on the subject . . . not only the right to discuss, but also the "UNDERSTANDING the PURPOSE of re-instating the Order of Deaconesses"

That's what so often happens in "forums" only part of the thought is looked at; and people get the message all wrong and discombobulated somehow!

StephanusI!

I pray that you may be given the GRACE of the Holy Spirit with regards to women in the Church. . . and their charisms! Christ Jesus Himself if He were walking the earth in today's culture, would surely be "deposed" because of His concern with women and their needs.

It seems to me that Our Lord Jesus Christ did reveal Himself clearly to women as well as to men in His time; and that the women did "get the message" and were certainly "Apostles to the apostles" -- the Samaritan woman, Mary Magdelene, and the others.

I am just appauled at some of the thoughts that men have of women! We are made in the image and likeness of God, also and are called to the fullness of Christ and to Theosis as well as men.

As to the restoration of the Order of Deaconesses, it is my prayer that when all the men go into hidding with fear, that women inspired with the love and grace of God-Trinity will stand up for the Truth!

a true story: in the midst of the French Revolution, when Churches were closed, monks,nuns and priests were defrocked; and priests were in hidding , fearful for their lives: when Christianity was in dire straights, a young girl, yes, a young girl named Anne Marie Rivier, who was frail, handicapped physically, but filled with Grace, with Love and Zeal for Jesus Christ, did not fear! She stood up in the pulpit of her deserted Church and called the people of her village to prayer, to the reading of the Gospel! Her motto was "To Make Jesus Christ Known and Loved or die!"

She gathered the orphans, the women, taught them the Gospel and Prayer; even men ventured out to hear the words that flowed from her mouth! "She, during her life-time she opened schools of Faith when Churches were closed, and the hierarchy was hidden and fearful. Her daughters crossed the seas; and today, there are Nuns, schools and zealous women speaking the Word of God in Truth and in Spirit!

This little girl is today, Blessed Anne Marie Rivier!

So, let's all wake-up and see that the harvest is great and that the laborers are few; and pray the Lord of the Harvest to send laborers into His vineyard, men and women.

Shestelle

p.s.The Orthodox Church is very much alive and well; Thank God that women as well as men are called to keep the Faith Alive in Christ Jesus Our Lord!

I would suggest that you read:

"Women and the Salvation of the World"

as I mentioned in another post!

Dear Forum members,

I will tell you another story:

A nun-missionary in the Philippines was assigned to a far out area in Mindanao. She was the Directress of the small Hight School in the area; it was affiliated to the Parish where there was only one priest. He often needed to go the city -- miles away -- so each time he left he told this Nun, "Sister, I leave you my parishioners and their needs" so, at times a family would come down from the mountains carrying a small blue casket, come to the Nun, when they couldn't find the priest, and aske for a funeral for their child.

In love and compassion this Nun would call the two indigenous sisters and together, in the Church a small funeral was held: candles, incense and especially the prayers for a funeral. How else is compassion and hope of the resurrection be given to a bereft family who perhaps travelled for days to come to the Church for "blessing upon their departed loved child"?

And, I wonder who would have gone out into the jungle with a group of men coming for the priest -- who wasn't there -- to go into the unknown for prayers over another departed child? Well this same Nun with a lay teacher went out with love and prayer and the presence of Christ Jesus to bring solace in times of grief.

We need to read the lives of the Saints, and the Gospel with "new eyes" in order to the Presence of Christ Jesus among the needy souls of our times.

Have any of you read the life of Mother Gavriella, an Orthodox Nun, who before she became a Nun and after also, ministered to the needs of the sick, to wounded soldiers in WWII, to lepers in India. She was not "ordained" by a hierarch, but was anoinited by Christ Himself to bring His love to His poor and despises. She did the work of a "deaconess" and so do many women, today.

Blessings of Love and Peace,
Shestelle

I am surprised by all the fuss here on this thread. I admit I've come to it rather late and haven't meticulously followed each posting from the beginning, but surely there really can't be any dispute over the fact that the Orthodox Church ordained women to the diaconate.

And it was Never Condemned or Officially discontinued by the Church!

It was VERY, VERY common up till at least the infamous 4th Crusade. I suspect people took it for granted as one of the ministries within the Church - one like all the others.

It is not at all an "innovation". Indeed it goes back to the Bible (St. Phoebe a "diakonos" as St. Paul calls her). We have the ordination prayer for the female diaconate. As someone says, we know how they wore their orars (not in the way of that icon, but as was pointed out, crossed in the front). We know at least 1 function they had during the Hierarchical Divine Liturgy.

Women were ordained to the diaconate at late as, if memory serves, the 1930s or thereabout, both in Greece and in Russia (if memory serves).

Many of the women saints were deacons.

If one doesn't like it, that's another matter. If one doesn't want it for the Latin Church, well, that their affair. And far be it from me to comment, much less meddle, in the internal affairs of my sister Church.

But that it is fully Orthodox and an ancient tradition (up to the last 60 years or so) cannot be denied.

I don't think personally one can say that Orthodoxy has 'fallen' were an Orthodox Hierarch to ordain some women to the diaconate next week. It will only be continuing it's ancient and venerable traditions.

To quote one of our Forumites, "Orthodoxia i thanatos!"

Herb

Shestelle,

First of all, no one on this forum is as contemptuous of women as you seem to be of men. To come right out with the absurdity that priests were "defrocked" during the French Revolution is an example of the sort of shoddy historical knowledge you are displaying on this thread.

Being forbidden by a government or dictatorship to serve as a priest, and perform sacraments does not in any way, shape, or form consistitute being defrocked! This is an insult to the memory of all those men who DID do their best during The Terror, and do not deserve you saying they were defrocked!

Further, to say Christ would be deposed for his attitude toward women is the most outrageous thing I have ever heard. HOW DARE YOU!

Christ had many women around him during his teachings, and encouraged their learning, and striving toward theosis! However, when He instituted the Eucharist, during the Last Supper, he only gathered MEN around him for this. Had He chosen women to be priests, He most certainly would have included a few! To imply that Christ was a misogynist who should be deposed is rank heresy!

Herb,

No one disputes deaconesses. However, their function is still largely unknown, in its specifics, and the order does not correspond to the male deacon as we see the usage today. The reasons behind wanting to reinstate the order (as, it DID fall out of usage for many centuries, and the attempts in the early 1900s were not a continuation, but a RESTORATION) must be examined.

One need not be ordained to perform charitable works, and as both men and women share classes these days, there is no need to ordain women to teach, in segregation, other women. The issue is that most of those who want the order restored want it to be so men and women can perform the same function during the Divine Liturgy as a male deacon does. Those people are merely pushing an agenda.

But the order has been out of use for so long that to decide to ordain a deaconess tomorrow would result in much confusion, as the original functions are obscured by time.

Gaudior, who wonders that such statements as defrocked priests and deposing Christ can be taken as truth

Herb,
Respectfully I would suggest you dont really know what you are talking about.
As for phoebe and the so called other deaconesses in the NT it would help you if you did have a little knowledge of the background, and language of the NT.
#1 It is not even sure that the forms of the names are "feminine" and secondly if they are that it simply did not mean that they were the wife of a deacon. Even priest's wives were known as Presbytides, which in no way implied ordination.

The Church has never "ordained" women to any ministry period. Even at Chalcedon, it was not an ordination.
Will get you a title of a very in depth study on the issue. So please stop swallowing all these half truths that the liberals are pushing.
Stephanos I

Women were never ordained to the deaconate. They received a blessing as they entered into their apostolate since no task was ever begun without the blessing of the bishop (and later, the priest). This blessing was never considered to be an ordination and was akin to the way we now bless catechism teachers at the start of every school year.

Equality of men and women does not demand sameness.

---

Shestelle,

Might I suggest that providing an account of those who have served the Lord has no relationship to the cause you are advocating?

Admin

Well you may be right...

but seems to me, when the Bible refers to St. Phoebe as "Deacons" (Diakonos) and not "deaconnesses" it seems to indicate that they are really ordained, not just blessed.

When they are ordained at the same place at the Hierarchical Liturgy as male Deacons are (not when Subdeacons are) and handle the holy Chalice with the Holy Mysteries therein, leads me to think that they are women deacons, not subdeacons, women monastics or a laywomen.

They may not have the same function as male deacons, so different, but apparently still ordinations.


The Greek word used is Kheirotonia, i.e. Ordination (not Kheirothesia - the "blessings" for the "setting aside" of subdeacons, readers, taper-bearers, etc.

The Service is VERY different both in time and substance from the "Setting Aside" of Subdeacons and other minor orders, whereas it is quite similar to that of male deacons. Looks like a duck, etc.

That some people who are lobbying for women to be ordained to the presbyterate are focusing on this, has nothing to do with Orthodoxy's having or not having this Holy Order. Indeed it shows that they (the lobbiers) do not understand the Orthodox vocation of the diaconate (and see it not as a distinct vocation in its own right, but in what I take to be in Latin Church terms, a kind of semi-priest). That Orthodoxy has had women deacons actually does not help their argument one way or the other.

Herb

Correct, Herb, as to the setting aside...

But as the functions that the Canons spell out for the deaconesses (limited as they are) and the age requirements are so different, it is clear that they were not the same office, nor did they perform the same functions as a modern deacon. So, it neither helps nor hurts the cause.

Gaudior, who says, leave it to the Church as a WHOLE to research those functions, and to decide if any retoration of the order is needed in today's world

Dear Bob,

As always,you bring to this thread loving, Christian wisdom.

I think that I can speak on the behalf of all the forum members who have been here for a while, in telling you how much we value you and respect you, both as a Christian brother and as a poster.

With love in Christ,
Alice

This post reminded me of a link that hasn't yet been posted to the thread (as far as I can see):

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm

I don't know Archimandrite Ephrem Lash's personal views and/or bias, or if he is a liberal pushing a half-truth (I don't get that impression from his website), but his liturgical translations from the Greek seem to be very well respected in numerous circles.

Dave

Dear Alice,

Thank you for expressing my own sentiments as to Bob's posting.

Shestelle in one of her posts stated the following:
" But, I know in my own heart that when I attend and participate in the Divine Liturgy, that I can be a
priest offering a sacrifice as much as the Ordained Priest who is presiding. I am not in the altar. But the
Altar is in the midst of my own Heart, and in the assembled Community, in the Prayer of Christ!"

I'm sorry Shestelle, but I can't comprehend how one can have the Altar within one's own heart....isn't that Protestantism?

Zenovia

I'm going to jump in here for a moment.

First, I'm going to ask everyone to tone down the personal vitriol in the posts. I've received several private emails asking me to review posts by Shestelle -- and while I see that she is responding to a certain amount of provocation, I think that her tone could be more Christian -- as could several of the other posters.

BTW, most research into the ministries in the early Church suggests that none of them were well developed. They evolved as time went by. The idea of women as deaconesses seems to be nearly universally held as a blessing which set them aside for a particular ministry. That their ministry was unique, and that they had ministerial power beyond that of deacons under certain conditions is certain. Whether or not they were actually ordained -- most scholars come down on the side of blessing rather than ordination.

Thank you.
Fr. Deacon Ed, Moderator

Dear Forum members,

In response to previous posts:

Yes, I humbly admit, I have allowed myself to be provoqued by some of what I deemed to be "unsavory" remarks concerning women in general. And, being a woman, I did take it personally.

No one would like to be spoken to in the way some of the posts have been going.

If I related a couple stories, it was only to show that in the absence of men in the Church amidst the laity or People of God, that women do take up the "torch of Faith" seriously; and in doing so, look to Christ Jesus, to what He would do, and how He would re-act in certain circumstances.

The Gospel tells me that a woman is able to be a fearless and public "witness" to Christ Jesus. --and this without ordination, but, in the anointing of the Holy Spirit, in the full Love of Christ for hurting humanity.

As I contemplate the Life of Christ in the Gospel, He certainly allowed Himself to be provoked by the Publicans and Pharisees, and even by His own disciples. I do believe that I have spoken in Christian Charity in my posts. I have no contempt for men in themselves -- their words or actions seem to me at times to be questionable -- I have questioned, yes! I have responded, yes! I have tried to give examples, yes; and I have prayed before posting, hoping not to insult or scandalise anyone.

Heavenly Father forgive us, for we know not what we do!

In Christ Jesus and the Theotokos,

Shestelle

p.s. I re-iterate that the book by Paul Evdokimos be read: Women and the Salvation of the World

Dear Zenovia,

If one cannot comprehend what I stated, it does not mean that it comes from Protestantism.

Read the Scriptures; contemplate the Icon of the Trinity by Rublev; ask the Holy Spirit and your Spiritual Father to guide you to understand.

In Christ Jesus and His Holy Mother,
Shestelle