I noticed prior to liturgy this past Sunday (Ukrainian Catholic) about a 1/3 of the people stood...and the rest knelt. Is kneeling considered a result of Latinization? Or is there just a difference I'm not aware of? Moreover, do most Eastern Catholics/Orthodox stand or kneel when they pray at home?

Thanks.

Dear Pavlo,

Welcome!

Kneeling on Sundays is definitely a Latinization as this is forbidden by the First Ecumenical Council.

However, even in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, people kneel twice during the Sunday Liturgy - but 90% of this Church's membership were former Ukrainian Catholics and the Orthodox Metropolitan Ilarion (Ohienko) actually defended this practice and told his priests not to dissuade the people from this.

The Old Believers are against kneeling even for private prayer. (They do believe in prostrations though - and how!)

I know many families that kneel at home to pray.

Kneeling is a sign of penitence and sorrow for sinfulness - which is also why I sometimes kneel before my wife . . .

Alex

"Kneeling is a sign of penitence and sorrow for sinfulness"

I don't think the people see it as this anymore. In modern day America people see kneeling as a sign of reverence, which is why why can walk down the street to most Orthodox Churches (and not just ex-Greek Catholic ones) and find kneelers and people kneeling at the Epiclesis. It is also why some in our Churches are loathe to give it up.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Well I really can't resist chiming in here

As you all know I'm a very recent member of the UGCC and of course my experience is somewhat limited - but I have worshipped in France , London and of course Scotland so here are my experiences of Kneeling vs Standing.

In London it was a mixture - but many did stand - from entering the UGCC Cathedral to leaving it . yes there are pews there so many also sat and yes, quite a few knelt at times too .

Lourdes - well it's a tiny Church but again it's a mixture of practices - the SSMI Nuns kneel , Pilgrimage groups vary some kneel , some don't , Visitors normally sit and look for kneelers [ there aren't any ]

Edinburgh - again it's a mixture - but I think it's about 50/50. The problem here is it's a converted Church of Scotland Church so it's FULL of pews and only 2 very narrow aisles. Standing practice has me a bit puzzled - you folks have taught me so well about the 'kneeling is penitential so you do not on Sundays' thing Curiously here we stand for the beginning of the Liturgy and then sit [ some of us :p ] for the great Litany and then stand for the rest until the Consecration when they kneel and then stand after that. Each time I go , more folk are standing throughout and I wish I could understand why this is changing.

If they "loathe" the new Divine Liturgy but are still required to use it perhaps they can "loathe" the removal of a Latinization (i.e. kneelers).

Churches without pews have a more healthy environment for small children. I know about this first hand. For the sake of the children perhaps the Church can once and for all get rid of this Latinization.

Dear Ray,

Actually, sir, you hit the nail right on the head!

Our parish priest wanted to get the people to stop kneeling . . . so he threatened to get rid of the kneelers . . .

And you said people wouldn't "stand for it?"



Alex

Dear Father Deacon,

Well, then the people are wrong!

What do the great Byzantine Unwashed Masses ("BUM") know?

And what do I know, for that matter? I just reported what I've seen and read.

Frankly, we are supposed to cross ourselves and bow at the Words of Institution - is that not so?

How can we properly do that when we're kneeling?

Kneeling at the Epiclesis, however, is something the Orthodox people will do in imitation of the Priest who will kneel during it (is that not so as well?).

It is like how the Roman Catholics began crossing themselves from left to right when they started imitating their priests as they blessed them (from left to right).

In our UGCC Eparchy here, parishes that kneel are often on the "Latin" side while others that stand are on the "Eastern" side.

Alex

Well, if your parish priest is doing his job, and mine did, he explained this is an old tradition, mentioned as early as 325 at the Council of Nicaea. Each day of the week we commemorate something different....saints, the cross, etc. Sunday is like a mini-Easter, the commemoration of the Resurrection, and on that day we do not kneel (kneeling is a sign of repentence). He said that St. Basil the Great explained that the rule symbolizes our personal resurrection as well as our calling to higher, more heavenly things.

Pure and simple, a Latinization.

Which brings up another Latinization, what do people "do" during the Communion Prayer?????

Dear Anhelyna,

I've a story to tell you about the Anglican kneeling cushions!

When we were at St Alban's Cathedral one time, I noticed the colourfully stitched kneelers on the stone floor . . .

I asked the tour people if I could buy one, but they said they could only sell me a "kneeler sewing kit." I told them I travelled a long way to visit them and that they had plenty of kneelers so that if they sold me just one . . .

They then gave me a large shopping bag and said that they had no control over what happens when one's back is turned . . .

To this, the tour guide's friend said, "Now that really is a disgusting suggestion you are making to Alex . . ." and then she, too, promptly turned her back.

As I slowly approached the side altar to position myself in such a way so as to, having chosen my moment, swoop down upon an unsuspecting kneeling cushion, the side doors opened and a funeral procession marched in . . .

It just wasn't going to happen that day . . .

But I shall return . . .

Alex

Dear Cathy,

Didn't you read Fr. Deacon Lance's post above where he says that that explanation for kneeling is no longer valid/the people don't see it that way any more?

So why do you persist in maintaining an old explanation that is no longer what it used to be?

Alex

I think they are comfortable with the way they have been socialised in to their Latinisms. Latinisms are more Catholic in the eyes of those who teach them. When the people have things explained to them properly and how their heritage was taken from them I think that many would be keen to stop it. In Australia we have kneeling all through the year. Makes no sense to have kneeling down prayers.

ICXC
NIKA

"Which brings up another Latinization, what do people "do" during the Communion Prayer?????"

???

What do you mean by "communion prayer"?

ICXC
NIKA

So what else in liturgy has been inherited from Latinization? What has been omitted?
What about closing the 'curtains' as I have seen in Orthodox liturgies?

Well, again who determines what is correct liturgically, and what is not? It is all very confusing to the parish when you have one priest who teaches tradition one way, and another yet another way. Who is correct? What is a parish to do when they change pastors frequently? Someone, once and for all, needs to clarify these issues for the people in the pews. Two pastors in a row have taught that we stand, our current one 'doesn't care.' So many, many people are tired of these inconsistencies.

Regarding the communion prayer, "I believe and profess...." do the people in your parishes bless themselves three times at the "Remember me O Lord" part, or do they beat their fist upon their left breast like the Roman Catholics used to do?

Dear Cathy,

In our parish, the majority cross themselves during the "Remember me O Lord...".

I have observed a couple members striking their breast three times, but they are the exception, and not the rule, however, I must say, I feel it is a valid, humble, and appropriate action for that person.

What about your parish?

Michael

Alex,

At my family's UOC-USA parish, and most that I have been too, people kneel at:

Gospel (most)
Creed (most)
We sing to You, We Bless You (all)
Our Father (99%) [Some priests and I have seen Bishops knee]
Communion of Clergy (30-40%)
Prayer for Ukraine/Bozhe Velykiy (All)

I actually like the idea of kneeling at the Our Father. I only do it when I go to Ukrainian Orthodox parishes, which is a lot. Something about it seems proper even though kneeling is a Latinization.

-uc

Breast beating for the prayer before communion in Australia.

ICXC
NIKA

At a nearby Jordanville Russian Orthodox Church people kneel at Eucharistic Prayer. Likewise at some Greek Orthodox (not Old Calendar) that I've gone to. Admittedly mainly old women do this, But is it correct?

N

Are we supposed to cross ourselves during the communion prayer? Or is this another Latinization? I notice the priests and deacons never cross themeselves at this point. Do the people cross themselves in the OCA and ACROD during the communion prayer?

And some of us in Marblehead, Ohio, USA. Specifically, some of us cross ourselves at the three "Remember me, Oh Lord . . ." and then we beat our breasts / hearts at the "Oh God, have mercy on me, a sinner . . . Oh God, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me . . . Oh Lord, forgive me for I have sinned against You without number." It is very powerful.

-- John

Dear Friends,

O.K., here is the TRUE Eastern way for laity to relate to kneeling on Sundays.

1) NO kneeling at all!

2) After the "This is My Body" we make the Sign of the Cross and do a waist bow.

3) The same for "This is My Blood"

4) The same for "Thine own of. . ." sorry but I don't know it in English.

5) At the end of the prayer "It is truly meet" we do a waist bow or bow to the floor.

However, when a parish loves kneeling, including bishops and priests (UC's experience is one I've not heard before!), then one has to exercise "pastoral erudition."

There is a saying in Polish: "co popyk, to typyk" or "every priest has his own specific typikon."

That is the problem in our Churches, whether in the Northern Carpathian Ruthenian Catholic Church (UGCC) or the Southern Carpathian Ruthenian Catholic Church (Byzantine Catholic).

So in addition to the "East-West" thingy, we also have a "North-South" issue . . .

God bless all Ruthenians!

Alex

"Well, again who determines what is correct liturgically, and what is not?"

Your bishop.

"It is all very confusing to the parish when you have one priest who teaches tradition one way, and another yet another way. Who is correct? What is a parish to do when they change pastors frequently?"

What is even more confusing is you tell your parishoners that Standing was mandated by Nicea I and it is the Eastern tradition and they walk down the street to the local Orthodox Church and see their church complete with pews and kneelers and people kneeling during Sunday Divine Liturgy, although at slightly different times. It is hard to sell something even the Orthodox are divided on. I think the current instruction to mandate standing from Pascha to Penetcost, while leaving it to the individual the rest of the year is pastorally best for now.

Fr. Deacon Lance

"Are we supposed to cross ourselves during the communion prayer?"

Yes.

"Or is this another Latinization?"

No. One strikes one's breast in Tridentine Rite.

"I notice the priests and deacons never cross themeselves at this point."

I do and every priest and deacon I have served with does as far as I can remember.

"Do the people cross themselves in the OCA and ACROD during the communion prayer?"

As far as I can remember, yes.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

So even the Orthodox aren't always, well, "Orthodox!"

I remember when we visited the cemetery at Pentecost and our UGCC priest would kneel at the beginning of every panakhyda for "Heavenly King."

We were surrounded by "Orthodox" priests ( ) who simply stood for their services.

I really felt like an "Orthodox Catholic" then!

And when I say that you know everything, it's because I mean it!!

Alex

I know this is how my parish works, but is it the "official" policy of the BC Metropolia?

Also, does the new liturgy people's book include instructions for the people on liturgical posture? And if so, what are the instructions?

I suspect that the no kneeling time also includes any penetential type act either in or out of church. I think it is more to do with that period and it's importance in the liturgical cylcle, than what happens at other times in the year.

I also would not be surprised if the 3x breast beatings came in from the Angus Dei and it's actions in the Latin rite and not possibly without realising where it came from there is an attempt in the Church to de-latinse to give this a byzantine flavour by changing breast beating to signs of the cross, when it could simply be dropped. I have never seen this in Russian Churches but there only the priest says this prayer full voice.

Just a few thoughts.

ICXC
NIKA

Alex,

Come down to Bound Brook. We'll show you how it is supposed to be done.

And then you can get the orange necktie from the Bratstvo.

-uc

Fr. Deacon Lance:

Well, if things were settled by no less than a council of the church in 325, how can we settle for just the "current instruction" when it is deficient. Looks like another catechesis moment for our bishops, whom God loves. Oh wait, that isn't their job, or is it?

Let me go do a little fact checking on this one. I'll go and see if that was listed under the canons of the council, or listed as a suggestion, subject to the local bishop/priest's whim.

Canon 20, Council of Nicea
Perhaps people should be educated by their priest/pastor that kneeling is a sign of penitence, at least as far as the council of the church interpreted it. That was settled 1681 years ago. See, there's that catechesis moment again.

John Scotus

I can't resist replying to this. To state whether it is proper whether to make the Sign of the Cross or beat your breast one would have to research whether the Publican was an Eastern or Western Christian.

http://www.byzcath.org/bboard/icons/icon10.gif

As to why the Deacon doesn't do either of these it is because he is holding the most Precious Body of our Lord at that moment. I bow at the time because that is the only practical sign of reverence.

With regard to kneeling or not, what I can't understand is when a service says "Bend your knee.." and the celebrant just stands there. It seems to say that you don't take your prayers very seriously. It seems to me we are spending a lot of credibility and good faith to make it such an important acid test. Some would insist that even for a weekday Divine Liturgy that you should not kneel, contradicting their own explanation.

Let us move as the Holy Spirit inspires us whether it be posture or hand gestures. Is that not what Eastern thought teaches? not forcing one uniform and universal mandate?

From Philippians 2:10

10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth

The Bible is the inspired Word of God. Per the beginning of the Gospel of John, we see this reinforced by the following.

From John 1:1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Isn't it strange, then, that per God, even the demons must kneel, but arguments are presented to the contrary regarding His Real Presence, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament in His Churches, His House, i.e., some men find that unacceptable!

In short, this has nothing to do with Latinization. It has everything to do with being obedient to God Almighty! Accordingly, the aforementioned arguments against kneeling are a violation of the principle of non-contradiction.

It also is a violation of common sense. You can stand to honor any man. But you show adoration to He, Whom if He forgot about man but for but a nanosecond, man would cease to exist. It used to be taught in catechesis that the Angels in Churches are in constant prostration before the Blessed Sacrament as a sign of adoration, as has traditionally been kneeling in an ecclesial sense.

Again, the Scripture reference is to the knee specifically bowing, which is why kneelers are in Churches.

stlouisix

Sadly it is clear that you do not understand the traditions of the Eastern Churches.

Perhaps a little more reading before you lecture us would be a good idea

Anhelyna - a member of the UGCC who does NOT kneel on Sundays

For example, one could never use standing as an act of adoration in our culture nor in the
oriental culture. We stand when a bishop or the President of the United States comes into the room, but we do not adore either one
of them. Similarly, today, many bow at the presence of great dignitaries and human authority, but they do not adore them. This is
also the case in oriental cultures today.

Once more, the act of bending the knee before Jesus Christ is not just a relative act, or an act that is based purely on culture.
Rather, it transcends culture because it is an act that has scriptural, traditional, and cosmic significance. God the Father says through Isaiah: "To me every knee shall bend" (Isa. 45:23).

Worship influences doctrine and vice versa. This
"influence" of "worship" on "doctrine" also includes the gestures and postures of worship.

Tradition has to start someplace. And that someplace is very clear here. It starts with the Inspired Word of God, as is very clearly annuciated in Sacred Scripture. We hear a lot of talk about Tradition, but it seems that no one wants to go back to where the tradition really started with God Almighty!

You said
I take it from that that you believe I am being willfully disobedient.

Not so - I obey the traditions of my Church - and despite your comments I will continue so to do

Yes you clearly have no idea or understanding of people outside your own cultural grouping. We stand as free men and women who were freed from the servitude of sin by it's destruction and it has not hold on us anymore. At appropriate times we make prostrations to the holy and holy things. We have our own interpretation of what we do and it may interest you that many on our side see your kneeling as a symble of the servitude of the western European feudal system imprinted on your culture to this very day. But that's my view of what your lot do in your churches. I do admit I dont spend too much time worrying about what RCs get up to, or why. The church has told us through the Pope and the Vatican Council what we should be doing and we are endevouring to do it. Each Church has it's own traditon and should stick to it.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Stlouisix and PaulB,

Did the old Roman Church cathedrals and churches have pews and kneelers?

Please remember that the East and West shared a common heritage in the Early Church. There are numerous threads discussing pews which provide some great info on the introduction and use.

What gains are received when someone points out that the other is perceived as incorrect in their worship style of God. The path is narrow enough. Do we need to try to sabotage the path for those seeking Truth and Life (Theosis)?

Would you rather be the Pharisee or the Taxman?

In Christ,

Michael

I repeat, "Did God in Sacred Scripture say that
bending the knee is not important?" It would seem that such is not the case given the aforementioned Scriptural references which are hard to ignore.

Accordingly, what is the difficulty with pointing out what God says as opposed to what man says in this regard? Here is one instance where God's Word is very clear! This has nothing to do with East or West. It has everything to do with what God says.

The will of God is made know to us through our Church. Our Church tells us to follow our particular Church practices. If you find our customs so offensive why do you come on to this Byzantine Forum? We should not be under attack here. We have explained our position and that should be the end of it. We operate within the Church, I have no idea where you are coming from.

ICXC
NIKA

This is a forum on a website called The Byzantine Catholic Church in America. As such, there should be no problem with Catholics posting on it. Someone started a thread about kneeling. All that I did was not attack anyone but rather bring to the forum's attention that God has some very important opinions about the necessity for kneeling as recorded in His own words, which is what Sacred Scripture is. It is very hard to argue to the contrary. Thus, there would appear to be a very strong Scriptural foundation for the practice of kneeling in Churches using God's own words. There is no need to get defensive about that? Clearly, the Will of God in this regard is stated by God Himself!

I attend Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgies and am helping an Eastern Priest start up a parish in a larger city in order to support two other parishes.

Stlouisix

You really have not understood what we are saying - we do kneel - but not on Sundays - Sunday is the Day of Resurrection - we are full of joy and our tradition says that we do not kneel then.

BUT tradition does tell us to kneel at other times - as an example take a look at the text of the Liturgy of the Pre-sanctified Gifts - you will see that we kneel then. If I have understood things correctly this Liturgy was given to us by St Gregory the Dialogos [ Pope St Gregory] .

Stlouisix - please understand we have our traditions and we follow them. We were exhorted by no lesser person than HH John Paul II to return to our roots and be faithful to our traditions - and this is exactly what we are trying to do.

I did not realise that scriptures could be used to attach established, venerable and ancient traditions of the Catholic Church, by a person professing to be a Catholic. As a Catholic and a Byzantine I am not into private interpretations of sacred scripture.

ICXC
NIKA

I notice that your Profile says that you are .

As such you should have become aware of our traditions and I trust that your Eastern Priest , who you are assisting , will help you understand them more and more.

I do not ask why it is you are attending EC Liturgies instead of those of the RC Church - that is up to you - and indeed I hope that you will find a home in our Church - but please - I beg you - do not try and make us become like RC Members - we have had these problems in the past and we hope that time had passed.

We have our traditions and they are handed down to us through time - and we love them.

The question was asked:

"I notice the priests and deacons never cross themeselves at this point."

To which I replied:

I do and every priest and deacon I have served with does as far as I can remember.

I should have been more clear. As Deacon Paul pointed out priest and deacons are holding the Holy Body at this point, so obviously they cannot cross themselves normally. Most will sign horizontally, that is move their hands in a crosswise fashion while holding the Holy Body of Christ.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I don't understand what the issue is here. Roman Catholics DON'T KNEEL anymore! Why are the BCC's stuck in the Pre-Vatican II Latization past?

Get rid of the kneelers.

This is what a real BCC should look like:


BTW, I spoke with Greek Orthodox priest about why the GOC in America had kneelers. He said it was because of the Latins. Go Figure! Now, they have instructions to get rid of them on a timely basis.

There is an importance re kneeling, specifically what that posture shows in terms of a transcendent event uniquely occurring when Christ humbles Himself to become present in the Holy Eucharist! It is not eisegesis that is being applied here but rather a simple observation of what God said. This is not a Protestant analog in re to how they treat Scripture, but rather a very Catholic one. What God said in this regard, again per the very clear Scriptural passages, is that kneeling is important to the point of God commanding kneeling. Traditions have to start with someone. There have been arguments on this thread that kneeling is somehow a pariah, witness the most recent post. God seems to feel differently. Man does not have to explain God's Word when it is so clear, but rather heed it.

stlouisix,

I find it odd that a a supporter of the Tridentine Mass would argue using a sola scriptura arguement. The Church is the final say on interpreting Scripture and deciding liturgical actions. The First Ecumenical Council of Nicea legislated that everyday from Pascha to Pentecost and every Sunday prayer be offered standing as a proclamtion of the Resurrection.

Now obviously the Latin Church has deviated from this for their own reasons and some Eastern Churches, Catholic and Orthodox have as well. One should not interpret a stance against kneeling on Sundays as a lack of respect or adoration for the Holy Gifts. Rather it is an arguement about what is the proper form of adoration. For the East it has traditionally been standing, kneeling was never a posture much used liturgically there. One stood or, when the service called for it, one prostrated. On Sundays and during Pascha one replaced the prostration with a deep bow.

Current problems with people disobeying the liturgical law of the Latin Church cannot and should not influence the restoration of tradition in Eastern Catholic Churches.

Fr. Deacon Lance

This is not a sola scriptura argument. The suggestion carries no merit. The Scriptural refs are widely used in the Great Tradition of the Church by her theologians in the recognition that lex credendi,lex orandi, is more than just a pithy phrase. Any number of Catholic tracts on this are available for proof.

stloiusix,

It certainly is a sola scriptura arguement as the Church has ruled against such a teaching in an Ecumenical Council.

I am not condemning Latin practice, but Latins certainly can't condemn the traditional practice of the East since they are only obeying the ruling of Nicea I!

Fr. Deacon Lance

Not to change the subject, but....

St. Louis are you a Tin Can Sailor?

Pani Rose

stlouisxi,

You state:
"This is a forum on a website called The Byzantine Catholic Church in America. As such, there should be no problem with Catholics posting on it."

Indeed this forum is hosted by a Byzantine Catholic, but you will notice it says Byzantine Forum. This forum for discussion of Byzantine Christianity, Catholic and Orthodox. All are welcome to participate. But I will warn you, coming here and attatcking Byzantine tradition and proclaiming Tridentine Latin tradition as the measuring stick by which other traditions are to be judged is not going to be tolerated.

Fr. Deacon Lance

There is a difference between penitential kneeling and kneeling to show adoration due God. This distinction has been made upon theological observances of what Nicea was talking about, i.e., there was no strict prohibition of kneeling re adoration.

Again, there is, in the history of the Church, the observation that the Nicean prohibition concerned kneeling as penitence, where it says that in the early Church, standing signified that "we have been raised up out of our sins." Why, then, is Nicea I being used to argue against kneeling as adoration?

Moreover, even if standing best expressed faith in the Resurrection at the time of the First Council of Nicea, one could argue that kneeling is best suited to that purpose today. It has been pointed out that, inasmuch as kneeling has come to signify faith in the Real Presence, it must also signify faith in the Resurrection: "If our Eucharistic Lord is really and truly the Word in the flesh, then the Word must have risen from the dead in the flesh and...he will come again to raise us up in the flesh."

In his great encyclical letter on the liturgy, Mediator Dei, Pope Pius XII affirmed that Catholic worship has developed in the course of history, in the light of an ever-deepening understanding of the deposit of faith. He also warned against liturgical "archaism," an excessive deference to the practice of the early Church, which fails to take this development into account. (See numbers 61-63.)

This cannot be a sola scriptura argument when the Church has placed such importance on it, using the aforementioned Scripture as a foundation.

There is no doubt that kneeling during the Consecration is a posture of adoration, not penitence. In number 11 of Inaestimabile donum, the 1980 document of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship, we are told that "when the faithful communicate kneeling, no other sign of reverence toward the Blessed Sacrament is required, since kneeling is itself a sign of adoration." This is affirmed in number 1378 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which can't be accused of making sola scriptura arguments ala the heresy of Protestantism.

It is clear from the teaching of Pope Paul VI, in his 1965 encyclical letter on the Holy Eucharist, Mysterium fidei (number 56), he wrote that "the Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside it."

Ordinary Catholics who resist the abolition of kneeling usually defend the tradition as a sign of faith in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Number 1378 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms that the posture is indeed an expression of that belief. Again, this is brought to your attention because the sum total does not equate to a sola scriptura argument ala Protestantism, which is what was inferred by the charge.

Undoubedtly, there are those who disagree with the observation that the prohibition at Nicea I was against penitential kneeling as opposed to kneeling regarding adoration. Regardless, those observations have been made by not a few theologians.

This is not the point. The point is that there is a foundation to the belief in the importance of kneeling as a sign of adoration that is a part of the Great Tradition of the Church, at least in the West, which follow the aforementioned Scriptural admonitions for a foundation. The Church is the infallible interpreter of Sacred Scripture in this regard, and a large part of the Church believes that it is not a sola scriptura argument to kneel during the Sacred Liturgy. You do not see the argument ever being made in that part of the West where the Liturgy has not been denuded of its Sacred Mysteries, that God meant otherwise than what He said Scripturally in this regard.

Bottom line, God seems to feel, judging by His Words, and how they have been interpreted in the West, at least, that kneeling is important for reasons of adoration to distinguish God from man.

It is a fact that once kneelers were erroneously allowed to be removed in the West, the belief in the Real Presence suffered. All we're talking about here is that which uniquely defines the faith. This, coupled with other myriad options referring to purported early Church practices, which, when examined under the scrutiny of the early fathers, to include the early eastern fathers, ala good sources like the Faith of Our Fathers by Jurgens, an indexed three volume set, are not what they are made out to be, have contributed to a dilution of the faith whereby the man-in-the-pew now believes that dogma can change just like the liturgy.

My what charity evidenced by those on this site to have to warn people about making observations about what God said! It seems to me that a Catholic view requires no warning on a site that has a forum open to Catholics, in particular, when that forum is at the pleasure of a site called The Byzantine CATHOLIC Church in America! Again, no one is attacking anything. Rather, the observation has been made that those having an affinity for kneeling at Sacred Liturgy have a firm foundation for doing so grounded in their tradition which is rooted in Sacred Scripture.

stlouisix,

We are talking here baout the Eastern Churches and what they should be doing, not the Latin Church. The Latin Church has been kneeling for along time and I am not arguing against in the Latin Church.

We are talking hear about what Eastern Catholics should be doing. The tradition of the East is not to kneel on Sundays, the evidence and lived history of our Church bears that out, and no amount of ultramontane pseudo-scholarship is going to change historical fact. I can understand and sympathize with those who kneel, but it can not be supported by an appeal to tradition because this is not a tradition of the Eastern Church.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Stlouisix,

In truth, you have done nothing except attack the Catholic Church since you have started posting on the Forum. Simply put, your views are not really Catholic. You have no understanding of the Eastern half of the Catholic Church and continue in your insistence that Byzantines and Latins be judged according to your personal understanding of the Latin theology. We can only put up with this nonsense for so long. You claim to know “what God said” and yet you know nothing. I can only continue to urge you to put aside your personal theology and dedicate yourself to study the theology of the Catholic Church, and – for information about the Christian East – to read and accept the teaching of Pope John Paul the Great. But if the uncharity continues you will loose posting privileges.

I highly recommend that you talk to your pastor. But something tells me that you have already labeled the majority of priests and bishops in the Church to be heretics.

Admin

It can be supported by an appeal to what God directly said, however.

And as for the Administrators comments, please give an example of how I have "attacked the Catholic Church since coming on this forum." There are many Catholics, to include priests, and an Archbishop, which have a very different opinion than yours in re to what I am saying, which is echoing Church teaching. I have politely presented such on this site attacking no one.

And I have already talked to my pastor, thank you, about all of this, with which he has no problems. Moreover, the problems that he, and a good many other Byzantine Catholics locally are having to include some clergy, per what I was told, and observe during adult catechesis, are a direct reflection of what I just presented in regard to the bigger scope of effect of changes in the liturgy being quickly equated to changes in dogma. I'm referring explicitly to the Catholic side of the equation here, not the Orthodox where the dogmatic differences are well known.

FYI, my statements are a direct function of the Catholic catechesis that I was taught growing up in the Church, and see witnessed by those who know their faith enough so as not to have it subtly stolen from them. Hard to make a charge like the Admins stick when the person he's charging is quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and traditional Church teaching.

I realize that there is a difference in the disciplines between the East and the West. But I also realize that tradition, regardless of whether it is East or West, has to start with Someone. When that Someone is spelled with capital letters, that should carry more credence than otherwise. Again, this is an observation made not just by be but by many theologians realizing Sacred Scripture is one of the roots of tradition.

What did God mean re kneeling if not what He said?

I'm always sort of amused when this topic comes up, because my feeling is, if you want to kneel, kneel! Who's stopping you?

Just last week we had some Traditional Catholic visitors at our Byzantine Catholic Church, and at the consecration, they knelt. We don't have padded kneelers (neither did the early Church!), so they knelt on the floor. And no one approached them and said, "Hey! Stand up!" They were perfectly free to do as they wished - just as you are.

It seems to me the concern is not whether or not *you* can kneel, but whether or not you can require *everyone else* to kneel.

Oh, also wanted to add, for those of you who think removing the kneelers will stop people from kneeling - I've seen little old ladies with bony arthritic knees literally CRAWLING on their knees up the aisle of an uncarpeted church, to plant a kiss at the feet of an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

So trust me, if people really want to kneel, they'll kneel - regardless of the "stance" (so to speak) of the church they happen to be in!

Dear "stlouisix"

First of all, it is Catholic tradition to try and not assume the names of Saints, in your case, that of St Louis of France - but that is your choice.

Secondly, when and where did God say we are to kneel during the Divine Liturgy?

If you can show me this and convince me of this, I will agree with you.

Thirdly, how else can the Ecumenical Council that forbade kneeling on Sundays be understood?

Are you saying, by quoting Pope Piux XII, that he promoted disobedience to the Canons of the Ecumenical Councils?

How is disobedience to a Canon a legitimate foundation for liturgical development or theological development of any kind for that matter?

In addition, is not the matter of kneeling a moot point in the Latin Church that has severely curtailed this practice?

Dominus Vobiscum!

Alex

How does that song go??

Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends....



-uc

Aw, shucks, that ain't any fun!

Dear UC,

If you are referring to me, I like ALL Tridentines!

Don't we Ukrainians especially honour the Trident to begin with?

And as for that poster's calling himself "St Louis IX," listen:

I've read about St Louis, I venerate St Louis, I've visited sites associated with St Louis - he is no "St Louis!"

Alex

St Louis,

The Pope in 16th Century that accepted the Union of Brest, Union of Uzhorod, etc... allowed Byzantine Catholics of the Ruthenian Rite to maintain their traditions. These "traditions" include standing during the Divine Liturgy. The BCC has been standing during the Divine Liturgy for more than 1,500 years.

I don't think you are calling the Pope's of Rome and the Patriarchs of the Church heretics. You just need to study a little more.

Yours in Christ!

Pane Doktor,

Tridentines have ruined my parish. I am in no way supporting them.

I was just trying to bring in some humor, because in my experience, Tridentines are bitter people who rarely smile and enjoy life.

I guess a Council in the Vatican will ruin your day.

Do you hear the people sing? Singing the song of angry men? It is the music of a people who will not be slaves again!

And I, for one, appreciate that humor, ukrainiancatholic!

Just one question, and I address this to East as well as to West: I think we all acknowledge that our respective traditions officially either mandate, or forbid, kneeling.

But isn't there room for individual diversity? If an individual attending a Liturgy feels so strongly that kneeling is the only proper posture for him/her at the Consecration, is there any reason why he/she (it?) can't just go ahead and kneel? And to you Trad Caths, can you allow a visiting Easterner to stand during Mass, if he/she/it/they feel similarily inclined?

Do we all have to march in lockstep at all times? As long as the individual in question isn't kicking someone in the shins when they kneel, or whacking them across the face when they stand, so what?

I would say no. There is an ole' saying:
I go to a TLM once in a blue moon. When I go, I do all the Latin stuff (holy water, genuflect, kneel, etc...).

I also when attending a Latin Rite Church kneel, sit and stand as they do. I do not give them lessons in how to suck liturgical eggs. I do not go there to show them how it should be done.

Yes I have known the Tredentines to try to impose themselves on UGCC Parishes here and were to put it bluntly a real pain to the whole Parish. We were releaved when they had somewhere else to go. They are so ignorant and so pushy. We not need lessons from them is how to do anything, including egg sucking.

I will stick to the instructions from the Pope. If they cant do that as well, then sorry but they should go elsewhere and bother God with their superior knowledge from another Church, preferably one of their own.

Anyone who is prepared to come to our Church in humility and a with a little curiosity to see and expereince another Church tradition and is willing to learn, is very welcome on the other hand.

ICXC
NIKA

Now come on - is that really the impression that I was conveying? Giving lessons on how to suck liturgical eggs? All I meant was that if someone is visiting your church and they don't know the rubrics, let them do what is comfortable for them.

As long as they're not trying to make YOU do the same thing, so what? Who is being hurt if someone kneels for the Consecration instead of standing, or vice versa?

I guess I am just on the wrong side in this debate, but honestly, I just don't get this "everyone has to be doing exactly the same thing, at exactly the same time, in exactly the same way" thing. Guess my '60's brainwashing is finally taking effect.

Dear Gal ,

No-one objects to visitors kneeling etc - we can't expect them to understand our traditions - well not till they have been with us for a good wee while and absorbed things in their own time.

After all we don't go to a Roman parish and say " You should not kneel on Sundays - it's the day of the Resurrection - kneeling is penitential " Nor do we demand to say an Akathist , and expect others to join us in that , before Mass.

By the same token - we do not expect folk who start as Visitors in our Parishes and stay with us , to start telling us what we should do . Not only is that wrong , in the case of kneeling , to my mind it's also impolite .

And I certainly don't expect to find someone coming to Byzcath to tell us all that we are doing it all wrong and we should be following the Roman tradition of kneeling and other practices .

Anhelyna - who took a very long time to realise that she had to go East.

I did not thing you were saying that.

However, in the Byzantine tradition there is no targeting of one point in the Anaphora as the Latins tradition has done. The consecration is in the context of the Anaphora or Eucharistic Prayer. A number of points (the Epiclesis for example) have to be passed in the context of that great prayer and then at the end of the Anaphora the All Holy is venerated.

I would find having someone doing something totaly different to the congregation annoying and a distraction to be honest.

ICXC
NIKA

Well, once again (or perhaps, for the first time - I may not have been making myself clear; it's been one of those days!), I'm trying to make a case for charity and for not being overly judgmental about the posture of others during Liturgy.

Most of us raised in the Latin Rite are NEVER going to completely get over the instinct to bend our knees when we hear the words of the Consecration, and a lot of us will still kneel when it's possible to do so, even though we "know better". I have been in the B.C. church for a couple years now, and I'm used to standing when we're supposed to stand, and sitting when we're supposed to sit, and bowing when we're supposed to bow, and prostrating when we're supposed to prostrate (well - watching other people prostrate! sometimes it's hard for me to get all the way down there! ).

But I still feel the instinct to kneel at a certain point in the Liturgy (as I told a friend last weekend, I have a "knee-jerk reaction" ), and even though I *don't*, I know people who do, and my feeling is, "so what?" If they want to kneel, let them kneel. It's no skin off my knees.

Such a charitable discussion for the Great Fast/Lenten season...

I agree...when in Rome do as...when in Byzantinum do as...East is East, West is West, respect them for their unique differences .

Get a grip people...

james

First of all what Catholic tradition are you talking about to not assume the names of saints? Certainly, not in the Latin Rite where the names of saints are encouraged to be taken, e.g., this is encouraged during reception of the Sacrament of Confirmation. Are Catholic parents not to name their children after saints? The suggestion is patently absurd. My father's name was Louis. He died when I was 10 years old. Was he not entitled to that name? By what Catholic directive is that claim made?

Second, you conveniently ignore everything that I said in my posts, which make a logical direct appeal to the importance of kneeling to the words of God Himself in Sacred Scripture. Thus, it is reasonable to see why kneeling is encouraged for adoring God in Catholic liturgies. How about speaking to what I said?

Third, that council that forbade kneeling made no such declaration in regard to adoration, which is the point at hand, but rather for penitential purposes, as observed by many theologians who are in disagreement with you.

Your comment about Pius XII ignores everything in the post about him.

What canon are you talking about re kneeling? We've already discussed what Nicea didn't say. Where is it a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church that kneeling cannot be allowed during the Sacred Liturgy, and anyone who does it is anathema? Please provide the reference.

As for the disparaging uncharitable comments about Saint Louis IX, my patron saint, my middle name is Louis after my father, that speaks volumes as to the pettiness of those on this thread who have no answers but must resort to ridiculing those with whom they have disagreements, which is something that I did not do, I recall.

I know I'm not Alex but some words have just come to mind.

Brick wall and head and OUCH

St. Louis,

Grace and peace from Our Lord Jesus Christ.

May I begin with my first point? Did you read my post directed to you about the Churches of the East standing for over 1,500 years?

Secondly,
It might surprise you that the East doesn't have Eucharist adoration like the Latins do (unless Orthodox Catholic can correct me with some obscure piece of knowledge I didn't know about ). Therefore kneeling is not an issue for the Churches of the East.

stlouisix,

Alex is refering to your use of stlouisix as a screen name.

As to Nicea:

Canon XX: Since there are some who kneel on Sunday and during the season of Pentecost, this holy synod decrees that, so that the same observances may be maintained in every diocese, one should offer one's prayers to the Lord standing.

Couple this with an unbroken tradition in the East of standing at Liturgy on Sundays and the fifty days (pentecost) from Pascha to Pentecost, and the Kneeling prayers taken at Vespers on Pentecost Evening your arguement is without merit. Adoration of the Eucharist in the form you are talking about was not even practiced at the time of Nicea I, in the East or West. You are reading into the text what you want read to confirm your own bias.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Wow, there has been some really powerful venom exchanged at this post.

People generally kneel at the Sunday Divine Liturgy at the St. Louis Byzantine Catholic Mission. This may be due to the fact that a majority of the congregation are visiting Roman Catholics.

I don't know enough about Eastern Traditions so I try and do what the Byzantine Catholics do out of respect for their Traditions. I am always asking them a lot of questions. They have always been very kind to take the time to talk with me, though some of my questions are pretty silly to someone brought up in the Eastern Traditions.

We have one Lutheran who sits through the entire Liturgy. It doesn't bother anybody. He is welcome, and I think a lot of us are secretly praying that the Holy Spirit leads him to becoming a Catholic or Orthodox.

I have an irregular heartbeat and have problems standing for extended periods of time. Thus, I kneel or sit, but nobody asks why.

I suggest:

If you want to stand, then stand.
If you want to kneel, then kneel.
If you want to sit, then sit.
If you want to leave, then leave.

JP

That´s a little bit strange...In Lutheran service/ mass the people stands many times - during the reading of the gospel and in the beginning of the eucharist for instance.

I guess he likes to sit.

Saint Louis IX is my patron saint, as he was of my father. Accordingly, there should be no problem with a Catholic using his patron saint's name as an identifier anywhere given the encouragment by the Church for intercessory prayers to Mary and the saints, especially our patron saints. I will never forget the feast day of Saint Louis IX of France because my best friend of twenty years at the lab where I work died suddenly on that day on the way to work on August 25, 2005. He posted quite frequently on this forum under Antonius, I believe, which was his identifier. His name was Anthony Joseph Cutezo, Jr. Saint Anthony was his patron saint. He had a tremendous devotion to Saint Joseph. Here is my remembrance of him that was published in my lab's newsletter. He, like me, was a Latin Rite Catholic attending Byzantine Divine Liturgies. He, like me, was a sacrostan for the Byzantine Catholic Church in which we worshipped.

-------------------
"I was blessed to have known Anthony for twenty years as a colleague at ARL, but more importantly, as a dear friend to not only me, but also my family. Anthony was the kind of person that all who really knew him considered their "best friend." He was a brilliant engineer in the most quiet and humble of ways. There was nothing that he would not do for you if asked, and usually asking was not required if he saw that you needed something. He had a wonderful sense of humor that was endearing and uplifted everyone around him. What I will remember most about Anthony was his deep lived faith as a Catholic with a tremendous devotion to Saint Joseph, the patron saint of a happy death, given that Jesus and Mary were at Saint Joseph's bedside at the end. Anthony would attribute all of his success in the most difficult of projects at the lab to his prayerful intercession to Saint Joseph. He would tell me repeatedly, "It was not me, but Saint Joseph." Every day when I came to work early with him I would find him starting the day with prayer. For Anthony all that he did was Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam (For the Greater Glory of God). He was a kind and gentle soul who was a tremendous example to all of us. And I know that when he died Saint Joseph would not have let him down, he would have been there with him to comfort him introducing him to Jesus and Mary. We were all the better for knowing Anthony Joseph Cutezo, Jr.. I will miss him very much."
----------------------

In the matter of Nicea, There is a huge difference between "should" and "must", the latter typically pertaining to a de fide articles of faith that "must" be believed by the faithful under pain of anathema. Again, what I referenced were the direct words of God in the matter of "knees bending," which can, and have been appealed to by those emphasizing a posture differentiated between adoration owed God, and honor owed man. This has already been respectfully discussed. The point made is that there is solid basis for making this distinction in the Mass or Divine Liturgy, as the case may be. This statement of Nicaea (I) in the 4th century refers to kneeling in general throughout the entire Mass and not just kneeling in part of the Mass. this statement of Nicaea (I) is not a ruling on posture, especially kneeling, as an act of latria or adoration during the Consecration of the Eucharist. If some act or form of latria at the Consecration of the Eucharist had already developed during the first few centuries of the Church, this statement of Nicaea (I) would not have been taken as an order to do away with that act of latria at the moment of Consecration. It would have merely been understood as doing away with the general penitential posture (kneeling for the sake of penance) at other times during prayer and the Liturgy on Sundays. Such is the opinion of many theologians who have studied Nicea, and concluded the following.

The Council of Nicea in AD 325 forbade kneeling on Sundays, because penitential prayer is not appropriate during a celebration of the Resurrection. In western Christianity, kneeling came to mean simple humility and submission, and so kneeling became the normal posture for most prayers in the west. However, to eastern Christians, kneeling still means repentance or supplication.

The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt, and let him go.
—Matthew 18:26

[Jesus] withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
—Luke 22:41-44

In Acts 9:40, St. Peter kneels down and prays before raising Tabitha from the dead. In Acts 20:36, St. Paul kneels down to pray with the elders of the church of Ephesus before leaving them. In Acts 21:5, St. Paul and the others kneel down on the beach and pray at Tyre. Our Lord kneels to pray in the Garden of Olives in Luke 22:41. Daniel kneels to pray in Daniel 6:10, and Solomon kneels to pray in the temple in 2 Chronicles 6:13.

The tradition of kneeling in the Church comes from the example of the Lord and of the Apostles and prophets. In most of these scriptural contexts, the prayer is not penitential in nature.

The following from the link provided makes the distinction that I'm referring to.

http://www.antiochian.org/1295

"How come on Sunday at the Divine Liturgy some people kneel in church and some don't?


"How come on Sunday at the Divine Liturgy some people kneel in church and some don't? (Dec. ’02)

"Let us look to the First Ecumenical Council in Nicea (325 AD). The 20th Canon which states that on the Lord’s day (Sunday) and from Easter through Pentecost all must pray standing and not kneeling. Canon 90 from the Council in Trullo (692 AD) reinforces Canon 20 from Nicea and specifies that the celebration of the Resurrection on Sunday begins with the entrance at Vespers on Saturday evening through the entrance at Vespers on Sunday evening.

"We don’t kneel because kneeling is a posture of repentance. On that day we are not repenting, but celebrating the Resurrection.

"During the week it is appropriate to kneel as an act of repentance and faithfulness. Since many Orthodox Christians don’t attend liturgical services throughout the week, the practice developed in many parishes to kneel on Sunday at the Divine Liturgy during the Consecration of the Gifts. It has become an act of piety for some and an act of following the crowd for others."

The point that is made by the advocates of kneeling as latria (adoration)is specifically, "Kneeling cannot be blanketly assumed to ALWAYS be an act of repentence," as was assumed in the above link, and in Nicea I by theologians carefully examining the issue. Rather, it CAN BE a posture directly related to the adoration owed God out of respect for He, Whom if He forgot about man for but a nanosecond, man would cease to exist. Such an interpretation of kneeling has been shown to have a basis in the great tradition of the Church rooted in Sacred Scripture.

That's basically all that I was respectfully trying to say.

Again, there was a group at that time called the Substrati who were penitents, and they knelt through the entire Mass every day, even on Sunday. To the Council of Nicea this looked like fasting all during lent and then fasting on Easter. So they said, "Kneel during the week if you want but on Sunday stand to show your victory over sin." But they were talking about the practice of kneeling for penance, not kneeling for adoration. And in those days the Church did the profound bow and the metany and the prostration before the Blessed Sacrament. They didn’t kneel. Kneeling was an act of penance, a sign of penance. [Please reference http://www.unitypublishing.com/liturgy/KneelingForCommunion.html]

Bottom line, there is a huge difference between kneeling as a sign of penance, and kneeling to adore God Almighty.

As far as references to the unbroken tradition of the East, I'm talking about Eastern Catholics not Orthodox. And there is a tradition of kneeling at the Consecration in Byzantine Catholic Churches to particularly include Sunday!

Yes , a recent tradition in imitation of the Latin practice. The Ecumenical Council of Vatican II and all Popes since, and some before, have called on Eastern Catholcis to shed Latinizations and resume authentic Eastern traditions and not differentiate ourselves from our Orthododx brothers!

The God-Man, Jesus Christ, did not have a difficulty with kneeling to God the Father in the Garden prior to His Passion. Clearly, He did not kneel because of a need on His part to be penitent because He was without sin! So the only explanation remaining is that Jesus knelt as man out of adoration to the Father, and in obedience to His will, which is a pretty good example for the rest of us, I think, especially during those times that we are the closest to God in His Real Presence, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, in His House, especially at that special time when God humbles Himself by coming down on our altars to be with us more than in Spirit!

The "Latin practice" that is so pejoratively referred to appears to follow God's example, per the evidence that has been presented. I do not believe that Jesus kneeling in the Garden could be characterized as Him following a Latin practice.

But the Lord did not kneel after the Resurrection. Orthodox Christians also kneel during Great and Holy Week, but not during the 50 day Feast of Pascha, or on Sundays (when the Resurrection is celebrated).

The reason for this is also Scriptural. The Apostles did not kneel during the 50 days. That is why the angel commented and observed that they were standing, looking for the return of the Lord from the heavens.

Nick

But the Lord did kneel as man prior to the Resurrection, and since none of us have been resurrected as yet; else, we wouldn't be posting on this site, it would seem that a good example to follow is the Lord's as man kneeling to the Father, which is quite an example since we're talking about the God-Man. Our Lord gave us many examples like this in His humanity in that He taught us how to treat our fellow man, loving them as I have loved you, and especially, how to treat God as we live out this vale of tears.

Dear louis,

I was not referring to your taking the name of a Saint - only you using the actual word, "Saint."

Shall I call you "Saint" for short? But that is not the primary issue.

Yes, the tradition of kneeling in EC Churches is in place. More to this, kneeling is done in Orthodox Churches as well. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada allows for kneeling twice during the Sunday Divine Liturgy - 90% of its members are former Eastern Catholics who brought this tradition with them.

That still doesn't mean that this is the practice that the East sanctions as the ideal.

The Council that legislated against kneeling on Sundays and during the Paschal period did not make the distinction between different meanings behind the kneeling.

Kneeling is appropriate in prayer, during Lent and other fasting periods. It is especially appropriate during intense prayer and our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, prayed in this way for that reason.

But the celebration of the Divine Liturgy on the Day of the Lord is, first and foremost, the celebration of His Resurrection and Glory and this is why the Council enacted its canon.

The fact that kneeling on Sundays occurs in both EC and Orthodox Churches is a sign of Latinization i.e. an abnormal state.

No one here is against kneeling, even kneeling during the Divine Liturgy/Mass celebrated outside Sundays and the Paschal season.

No one is against kneeling during prayer.

But ideally we should stand on Sundays and throughout the Paschal season as the Universal Church decreed at the First Ecumenical Council.

It is not a canon that is up for interpretation, reinvention or qualification.

As a traditional Catholic, I know you understand this.

When Rome decided, at one point, to move the traditional fast of Wednesdays over to Saturday, the East actually rebuked Rome, despite the role of the Pope, over this.

If you, as a traditional Catholic, would like greater faithfulness among Latin Catholics to Tradition, it would be good if traditional Catholics themselves became more attuned to that Tradition that is primarily reflected in the first Seven Councils of the first millennium of the Church.

If Popes of Rome were capable of legitimately changing that Tradition to include kneeling on Sundays etc., then WHAT is preventing contemporary Popes from enacting legislation to change the Order of the Mass (ie. Novus Ordo) and other matters that many traditional Catholics today are alarmed about and even oppose?

The standard for Latins and for Easterners must include a renewal based on the canons of the Councils of the first millennium.

That is what we, as Eastern Christians, are committed to and though we fall short of it, we are striving toward this as our ultimate goal.

Alex

stlouisxi,

Why do you persist in placing your interpretation above the tradition of the East and teaching of Ecumencial Councils?

I notice you consistently and conveniently avoid acknowledging references to Eastern tradition (Orthodox and Catholic), Ecumenical Councils, and Popes which disagree with your personal interpretations.

Fr. Deacon Lance

You keep erroneously referring to "my personal intepretations," despite the evidence I give of those in the Church Universal, clergy and laity alike to include many theologians who are in complete agreement. How can it be "my personal interpretation" when you're presented with a link from an Orthodox Site which says exactly what I have presented in terms of the penitential referral to kneeling, and why they don't do it because so?

I keep putting out the obvious in regard to what words really mean, and that is ignored. I could ask you the same question. Why is that?

Please cite what Pope disagrees with kneeling as a form of Latria (adoration) proper to God. Sed contra, a look at any comprehensive Papal Encyclical site, and the Catholic Encyclopedia, to name two prominent references, refinforces what I'm saying. And just what is it that I'm saying that is difficult here.

What I'm saying is that, for Catholics, latria shown to God during the Sacred Liturgy in the form of kneeling has been a very common practice. There have been some on this thread who would dismiss that out-of-hand for Catholics using the Orthodox as an example. What the Orthodox teaching or tradition is along these lines is well known. What I'm saying is that it is equally well known why the tradition of kneeling is held as proper for Catholics!

Why should the title "Saint" be excluded from his name to distinguish his very special place among the Church Triumphant in Heaven, i.e., his life being a prayer for a Kingdom not of this world?

The fact that the Council did not formerly make any distinction between the different meanings regarding kneeling does not mean that they didn't exist. Moreover, they are expressly understood as such by the Orthodox ref that I provided regarding not kneeling because it is penitential referencing Nicea as the basic source. Again, this has been pointed out by many studying Nicea.

What you're referring to as "an abnormal state" in terms of latria proper to God would appear to be in conflict with the example of God Himself, which has been previously discussed. Again, there is a distinct difference between "should" and "must." Thank God for that. It would be odd for a Council of the Church to forbid kneeling during Sacred Liturgy at Catholic Churches upon pain of anathema, which Nicea did not do, as has been observed by many theologians who have studied it, in particular, in reference to those using its argument to change the Latin Rite posture.

Catholics are not restricted to the Canons of the Council of the first Millenium. The Church has been in existence for 2000 years, not 1000.

There is no doctrine of papal impeccability that is defide. Popes make mistakes. This history of the Church bears witness to this. Liberius excommunicated Athanasius who saved the Church from Arianism. Such mistakes have not been made in re to de fide infallible dogma declared via the extraordinary (ex cathedra) or ordinary Magisterium because the Church is protected by the Holy Ghost in such matters. Catholics can legitimately argue that the Novus Ordo has been a huge mistake, for example, because all of the leading Catholic indicators, numbers of priests, nuns, religious, et al, have almost exponentially plummeted since the Council, a Council I might add, that made the Novus Ordo an option, not the norm, the norm remaining the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Pius V, which every priest has a right to say per recent statements from Curia cardinals in reporting to the Pope reinforcing Quo Primum.

Wow.

Maybe it's the Guiness but I always thought this was Byzantine Forum. I had no idea this is a Roman Catholic one! To think I have been posting in the wrong place for the last 4 years!

Is outrage!

All this stuff about the Latin Mass and this Counil and that Council and where we kneel and where we don't reallys gets confusing after a while.

All I know is that we, in the East, have our Traditions, our norms, our Canon Law, our Saints, our Synods, our bishops, our priests, our faithful and the Body and Blood of Christ.

We are entitled to all that is ours through Holy Tradition and through the Canon of the Eastern Churches. Nothing will change that.

Our House is build on firm ground, baby! Not on any sand!

I have yet to hear about one Saint who spent his whole life bickering over to kneel or not to kneel. I am not a betting man, but I'd wager they were just a little more worried about Loving God and the Marvels of His Creation.

For Example. Blessed Zenon Kovalyk, as we was being nailed to the cross in that prison in L'viv. Do you think this last thoughts were, "I should have knelt more in church?"

Geez, to think, a Council in the Vatican can ruin your day.

-uc

p.s. Smile folks. Life is good.

Almost all of the ‘evidence’ you offer is taken out of context. And your continued dismissal of everything you personally don’t like in the Church can only be described as anti-Catholic. You are doing nothing more than taking the extreme Latin approaches and treating them as those of the universal Church, despite the actual teachings of Pope John Paul the Great, the Seven Ecumenical Councils and other authoritative teaching that tell us otherwise.

Since this is a thread on standing vs kneeling, I must ask you to produce some sort of authoritative teaching that rescinds the direction of the First Ecumenical Council on the need to stand on Sundays (instead of knelling) in honor of the Resurrection, one which is directed as Byzantines. If you cannot produce these directives (aimed specifically at Byzantines) then you must either withdraw your claims or admit that they are no more than your personal beliefs.

The Byzantine Catholic Church and The Byzantine Forum are not places for you to launch continued attacks against everything that you hate in the Roman Catholic Church. We are not Latin Catholics with a Slavic accent. If you are not interested in becoming Byzantine Catholic (you list yourself as a “Traditional Latin Rite Catholic”) then you ought to go home to your Latin Catholic Church and work out your issues there. I will not allow you to continue to attempt to push your personal understanding of Catholic theology as if were actually legitimate Catholic theology.

Consider this to be your only warning.

Admin

Dear Alex,

I don't know about stlouisix, but just wanted to say "thanks", as both you in your post above, and Steve Petach in a phone conversation yesterday, made this same point and after some meditation, it has really helped clear up the issue for me.

In stlouisix' defense, while it hasn't been the case in this particular thread, there have been occasions on this forum where the practice of kneeling has been spoken of rather disparagingly, so that perhaps some Latin Rite visitors get the impression that Eastern Rite Catholics think it's "bad" or "wrong" to kneel - when actually, as you explain above, it's just a matter of doing so at the proper place and time.

Maybe during this Lent we can all, East and West, re-examine our attitudes towards each others' practices, devotions and traditions and try to be more careful about the way we discuss them in public places, like this Forum. (And I'm definitely including myself first and foremost in this recommendation! )

Love,
Dolly

Are you folks still arguing about this? Its worse than my little sister and me - we argued about everything growing up just to be arguing. Some of these comments would make great comedy on Jon Stewart and the Daily Show.

Dear Dolly,

Well, I certainly grew up kneeling at Mass . . .er, I mean "Divine Liturgy!"

When I attend Liturgy at other parishes and others kneel, I think it appropriate to kneel so as not to call attention to myself - I do that too much already in other contexts . . .

As the Administrator said above (good of him to drop by the Forum - and just in time too! ), it is a question of liturgical context.

I don't think anyone will be excommunicating anyone for kneeling on Sunday and it will take a lot to get ALL EC's to stand or follow other of their traditions that, if we were forced to follow them, would probably make most of us feel really uncomfortable.

I still can't understand, for example, why there are EC's who don't see the clear Eastern roots of the rosary and scapular!! Can you imagine . . .

My rule in general when it comes to devotions that RC's have is that, if you have it, then it must have come from the East first!

I understand stlouisix - I'll call him "Saint" for short. Truth be told, I can forgive him for his kneeling thing. I don't call myself "Saint Alex" after my patron and so I don't know why he calls himself "stlouis."

Is it strange of me to keep on him for that? Yes? All right, I"ll stop . . .

When I"m in an RC church, I will genuflect on my right knee. And when I met Her Majesty the Queen, I genuflected on my left.

Sorry for mentioning the latter on St Patrick's Day!!

Erin go Bragh!

Alex (wearing the green today)

Dear John Patrick,

Yes, they're still arguing about that, can you imagine!

And on a fine day like the one dedicated to Saint Padraig of Eire!!

How does one exactly pronounce "Slainte?"

(In case you haven't noticed, the Administrator's surname isn't "Irish-sounding")

I, at least, can get away by calling myself "Ronan" (as opposed to "Roman") for today . . .

Alex

Ronan the Contrarian?

(Just teasing, Alex! You are the least contrary person around here, usually! )

Orthodox Catholic:

I have a question about the way the Rosary is said at the St. Louis Byzantine Catholic Mission. I should probably ask one of our Byzantine Catholics, but I already ask them enough questions each weekend (Divine Liturgy is on Saturday evening because this is the only time we can use the Chapel at St. Mark's).

We stand during the first, third, and fifth mysteries. We sit during the second and fourth. Do you have any understanding why this would be the practice?

I'm not complaining; I can only stand or kneel for so long due to health problems.

JP

You pray the rosary at the Byzantine Catholic mission?

Why don't you try switching to the Divine Mercy chaplet?

+T+
Michael

I give up you guys are determined to turn these Byzantine Churches you go to into Roman Catholic Churches with all your kneeling down and Rosaries and any other RC things you can think of. You clearly read nothing on us and yet this site recommends books that would enlighten you as to our liturgical & spiritual traditions.

You are insensitive to a people who in order to be Catholic had to become 3rd and 4th class ones for a long time. Various people have tried to get past your hardness of heart to explain what is happening in our various Byzantine traditions and why and keep coming back with more Latinism.

There clearly needs to be more Trendentine Churches established in where ever it is you live, as that is what you are missing so badly. Other people come to our Churches and are as keen as mustard to join in and learn new and different ways and just love it. I simply give up, go and do your own thing, nothing we say is making an ounce of difference.

I need a stiff drink. Where is the tea pot.

ICXC
NIKA

Because that is what the Byzantine Catholics pray. The Scriptural Rosary is prayed 30 minutes before Divine Liturgy begins, and the Byzantine Catholics outnumber the Roman Catholics 2-1 at that time of day. So, we do what they do.

I just presumed the Scriptural Rosary was an Eastern Tradition, or perhaps a Ruthenian-Byzantine one. I would not presume to suggest that they stop what they have been doing for more than 25 years.

The Scriptural Rosary is different than what I was taught in Roman Catholic grade school. Before each Hail Mary, a Scriptural passage is read pertaining to the specific Mystery upon which you are to contemplate. For example, a Scripture about the Passion of Christ is read before each Hail Mary during the Sorrowful Mystery.

Adding the Scriptural passage makes praying the Rosary twice as long, but it seems to take half the time to pray it because your mind does not wander all over the place. It keeps you focused on the Mystery. I highly recommend the Scriptural Rosary to all Roman Catholics, and anyone else who prays the Rosary.

Now back to my question: Does anyone know why we stand during the first, third, and fifth Mysteries, but sit during the second and fourth? I don't want to ask the Byzantines at Church tomorrow night because I already sound like a dunderdorf.

One of the Byzantine Catholics gave me the Scriptural Rosary book; they use it in place of the beads. I assume it is available through an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox bookstore.

JP

JP,
Matins, not the Rosary, is the traditional Eastern service preceding the Divine Liturgy.
-Wolfgang

Pavel Ivanovich:

There is no determination on my part to turn the St. Louis Byzantine Catholic Mission into a Roman Catholic Church. I respect and try to follow along with what appear to be the Eastern Traditions of this Mission.

It is beyond my experience why the Byzantine Catholics have certain rituals at this Mission. For all I know, this may be another part of the Holy Spirit's Americanization of the Byzantine Catholic Church.

I just to sing the Divine Liturgy, though I should probably hum due to my inability to carry a tune.

JP

Wolfgang:

Little 'ole me is not about to tell the Byzantine Catholics that they should be saying Matins instead of the Scriptural Rosary.

I just try and do what they do, and ask questions when it seems appropriate.

JP

What is Americanisation supposed to mean? It sounds like something to be wary off. I am sure this is something a Pope now long dead warned the Church to be wary of.

Where is that cuppa. I put it down here somewhere.

ICXC
NIKA

The great melting pot of America is redefining what it means to be a Byzantine Catholic. The encyclicals of Pope John Paul II to return to the Eastern roots apply very nicely to Europe, but you will never convince Americans they apply to us.

The Byzantine Catholic Church in America is becoming a Church of diversity. It will include descendants of Eastern Europeans and Western Europeans. It will also include Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc.

Each group is bringing part of its culture to the Byzantine Catholic Church. I look forward to the Divine Liturgy the day before the national holiday in honor of Dr. Martin Luther King. Imagine the Divine Liturgy on the feast day of Our Lady of Guadelupe, the Empress of America!

E Pluribus Unum applies to the Byzantine Catholic Church. Keeping that which is best of a group's Sacred Tradition? A resounding, yes! Blind allegiance to the ancient practices of our foreign ancestors? A resounding, no!

This is the Americanization of the Byzantine Catholic Church. We give a nod and a wink to those who complain of Latinization. However, it just doesn't really apply to us.

Some day, hopefully sooner rather than later, there will be a Patriarch of the American Byzantine Catholic Church. Then we shall sing: "Mine eyes have seen the Glory of the coming of the Lord ... His truth is marching on."

Amen, Hallelujah!

JP

THAT'S the spirit! Let's not fuss over what an American Byzantine church should be praying!

I would try the Taize' prayer too, it is very popular, and one can do prostrations.

+T+
Michael

Dear John Patrick,

None of the UGCC parishes I know have ever prayed the Rosary in Church before the Divine Liturgy or publicly in any way in Church.

There are parishes who use the Stations of the Cross, but I've only been to Akathists to the Passion.

If the tradition of reciting the Rosary publicly before the Divine Liturgy is in place, then it is in place.

There is no rubric regarding standing during several of the Mysteries - perhaps it is a kind of adaptation of this paraliturgical prayer to the "standing-sitting" rubrics with respect to the singing of the Psalms or to keep everyone's attention focused with standing/sitting breaks.

St Seraphim of Sarov prayed the rosary/rule of prayer of the Mother of God daily as a private devotion and got all his spiritual children to recite it. He and some other Russian saints actually said it was THE most important prayer to the Mother of God to be said, and even ahead of the Akathist! I read this in an online article in Russian about the Holy Elder.

But St Seraphim clearly regarded it as a private spiritual exercise that could be said with others, of course. At Diveyevo in Russia, the Orthodox nuns go around the perimeter of their monastery together and sing the 150 Hail Mary's out loud as they go.

But this wouldn't be a prayer to be said as a kind of public service in Church, ideally.

St Seraphim, in his rule for the nuns of Diveyevo, prescribed the singing of a Paraclesis service to the Mother of God prior to the Divine Liturgy - this was to prepare for the Divine Liturgy via a meditation on the Divine Incarnation which is what the Rosary before the Divine Liturgy is also designed to do.

Alex

Orthodox Catholic:

I don't know why the Byzantine Catholics in St. Louis pray the Rosary before the Roman Catholic visitors arrive for Divine Liturgy. My high school football coach taught us to always show up 15 minutes before any meeting. That is how I learned that the Byantine Catholics are praying the Rosary.

Tonight, Father Weber said that Matins would be two hours before Divine Liturgy on Easter. I thought Easter was called Pascha, but that again shows you how little I know about Eastern Traditions.

I asked a Byzantine Catholic after Divine Liturgy tonight to explain Matins to me. He was most kind and said that they are basically the same thing as Vespers.

I told him I didn't know anything about Vespers except that it is some practice of the Anglicans/Episcopalians. Cradle born Irish-American Catholics are definitley not taught what the Anglicans/Episcopalians do.

He smiled and said just show up 15 minutes before Matins on Easter (Pascha?), and they will show me what to do.

JP

Hello John,
Matins, Vespers, Compline etc. are what Roman Catholics call the Liturgy of the Hours.

Roman Catholic clergy are normally required to pray them every day, but it is structured in such a way as to be possible to do as a private prayer. It is now regaining popularity among the laity in the RC world, I prayed the hours for several years myself when I was still a Roman Catholic.

The tradition has been preserved in monasteries in the west, and most hours there are done communally. The practice at cathedrals and some parishes continued for many centuries but has fallen into disuse, especially with the need to offer more than one Mass on a Sunday. Most Roman Catholics are barely aware of the older Christian practice.

(BTW The Anglicans either retained the praying of hours in the parishes or restored them at some point, but it is definitely an ancient Catholic/Orthodox practice.)

In the east the Tradition has had the hours done communally up to the present day, both in the monasteries and in the parishes. It is actually an integral part of the liturgical life of an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox. Vespers is in the evening, it is actually the first prayer of the day (which begins at sundown). Compline is night prayer (nocturnes) and Matins is at sunrise.

In the Slavic tradition Vespers and Matins are the opportunities for the Faithful to make confession, so it is very important indeed.

After the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod the liturgical hours in the parishes somehow became suppressed. No one has yet been able to offer a good traceable explanation for this but the result was an introduction of the rosary in place of Matins before Divine Liturgy. This contrasted with the standard Orthodox practice which continued as before.

Thus an entire aspect of Easten spirituality was lost to the Eastern Catholics of central Europe. It had tragic consequences for the church.

In light of the fact that Rome has ordered the Eastern churches to restore their traditions, today one would hope that the missions would encourage a revival of the authentic practices, not sustain and encourage the abuses of the past.

+T+
Michael

Brother Michael,

There are many who still pray/practice the pre Vat II Divine Office(many Benedictines do)...especially if one attends the indult and uses the 1962 Missal...I do use & supplement my own with a sliver of the Byzantine version...I think the Lord appreciates a variety...

james

Jakub:

Your comment that "the Lord appreciates a variety" is very insightful and summarizes Thesesian theology.

She wrote:

"I understand how all the flowers [Jesus] has created are beautiful, how the splendor of the rose and the whiteness of the Lily do not take away the perfume of the little violet or the delightful simplicity of the daisy. I understood that if all flowers wanted to be roses, nature would lose her springtime beauty, and the fields would no longer be decked out with little wild flowers.

"And so it is in the world of souls, Jesus' garden. He willed to create great souls comparable to the Lilies and roses, but He has created smaller ones and these must be content to be daisies or violets destined to give joy to God's glances when He looks down at his feet. Perfection consists in doing His will, in being what He wills us to be.

"I understood, too, that Our Lord's love is revealed as perfectly in the most simple soul who resists His grace in nothing as in the most excellent soul; in fact, since the nature of love is to humble oneself, if all souls resembled those of the Holy Doctors who illumined the Church with the clarity of their teachings, it seems God would not want to descend so low when coming to their heart." Story of a Soul, page 4, translated by John Clarke O.C.D. (3rd Ed. 1996).

Yes, I also believe the Lord appreciates a variety.

JP

Jakub, have you ever used the three-volume John XXIII Divine Office? I very much liked that edition. I do really love the lessons of Matins in the Roman Office. I am not sure what the Clear Creek Benedictine monastery in Oklahoma uses (a foundation of Fontgambault and very traditional) - I'll ask Fr. Prior next time I am down there.
FDD

Just a guess but ... the Antiphonale Monasticum for the Offices and the Graduale Romanun for Mass.

ICXC
NIKA

Deacon Diak,

I should be so lucky to own them...I get by with a 1962 short breviary(Benedictine) which I love and use the most(plus the Hours of Prayer ), I also add a 1965 Lauds Vespers & Compline Roman Office, both made at St. Johns Abbey(Liturgical Press), the present versions just don't compare in content or verse structure etc.

Some monasteries/orders follow the older 1 week office, some the 2 or 4 week version.

james