I noticed prior to liturgy this past Sunday (Ukrainian Catholic) about a 1/3 of the people stood...and the rest knelt. Is kneeling considered a result of Latinization? Or is there just a difference I'm not aware of? Moreover, do most Eastern Catholics/Orthodox stand or kneel when they pray at home?

Thanks.

Dear Pavlo,

Welcome!

Kneeling on Sundays is definitely a Latinization as this is forbidden by the First Ecumenical Council.

However, even in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, people kneel twice during the Sunday Liturgy - but 90% of this Church's membership were former Ukrainian Catholics and the Orthodox Metropolitan Ilarion (Ohienko) actually defended this practice and told his priests not to dissuade the people from this.

The Old Believers are against kneeling even for private prayer. (They do believe in prostrations though - and how!)

I know many families that kneel at home to pray.

Kneeling is a sign of penitence and sorrow for sinfulness - which is also why I sometimes kneel before my wife . . .

Alex

"Kneeling is a sign of penitence and sorrow for sinfulness"

I don't think the people see it as this anymore. In modern day America people see kneeling as a sign of reverence, which is why why can walk down the street to most Orthodox Churches (and not just ex-Greek Catholic ones) and find kneelers and people kneeling at the Epiclesis. It is also why some in our Churches are loathe to give it up.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Well I really can't resist chiming in here

As you all know I'm a very recent member of the UGCC and of course my experience is somewhat limited - but I have worshipped in France , London and of course Scotland so here are my experiences of Kneeling vs Standing.

In London it was a mixture - but many did stand - from entering the UGCC Cathedral to leaving it . yes there are pews there so many also sat and yes, quite a few knelt at times too .

Lourdes - well it's a tiny Church but again it's a mixture of practices - the SSMI Nuns kneel , Pilgrimage groups vary some kneel , some don't , Visitors normally sit and look for kneelers [ there aren't any ]

Edinburgh - again it's a mixture - but I think it's about 50/50. The problem here is it's a converted Church of Scotland Church so it's FULL of pews and only 2 very narrow aisles. Standing practice has me a bit puzzled - you folks have taught me so well about the 'kneeling is penitential so you do not on Sundays' thing Curiously here we stand for the beginning of the Liturgy and then sit [ some of us :p ] for the great Litany and then stand for the rest until the Consecration when they kneel and then stand after that. Each time I go , more folk are standing throughout and I wish I could understand why this is changing.

If they "loathe" the new Divine Liturgy but are still required to use it perhaps they can "loathe" the removal of a Latinization (i.e. kneelers).

Churches without pews have a more healthy environment for small children. I know about this first hand. For the sake of the children perhaps the Church can once and for all get rid of this Latinization.

Dear Ray,

Actually, sir, you hit the nail right on the head!

Our parish priest wanted to get the people to stop kneeling . . . so he threatened to get rid of the kneelers . . .

And you said people wouldn't "stand for it?"



Alex

Dear Father Deacon,

Well, then the people are wrong!

What do the great Byzantine Unwashed Masses ("BUM") know?

And what do I know, for that matter? I just reported what I've seen and read.

Frankly, we are supposed to cross ourselves and bow at the Words of Institution - is that not so?

How can we properly do that when we're kneeling?

Kneeling at the Epiclesis, however, is something the Orthodox people will do in imitation of the Priest who will kneel during it (is that not so as well?).

It is like how the Roman Catholics began crossing themselves from left to right when they started imitating their priests as they blessed them (from left to right).

In our UGCC Eparchy here, parishes that kneel are often on the "Latin" side while others that stand are on the "Eastern" side.

Alex

Well, if your parish priest is doing his job, and mine did, he explained this is an old tradition, mentioned as early as 325 at the Council of Nicaea. Each day of the week we commemorate something different....saints, the cross, etc. Sunday is like a mini-Easter, the commemoration of the Resurrection, and on that day we do not kneel (kneeling is a sign of repentence). He said that St. Basil the Great explained that the rule symbolizes our personal resurrection as well as our calling to higher, more heavenly things.

Pure and simple, a Latinization.

Which brings up another Latinization, what do people "do" during the Communion Prayer?????

Dear Anhelyna,

I've a story to tell you about the Anglican kneeling cushions!

When we were at St Alban's Cathedral one time, I noticed the colourfully stitched kneelers on the stone floor . . .

I asked the tour people if I could buy one, but they said they could only sell me a "kneeler sewing kit." I told them I travelled a long way to visit them and that they had plenty of kneelers so that if they sold me just one . . .

They then gave me a large shopping bag and said that they had no control over what happens when one's back is turned . . .

To this, the tour guide's friend said, "Now that really is a disgusting suggestion you are making to Alex . . ." and then she, too, promptly turned her back.

As I slowly approached the side altar to position myself in such a way so as to, having chosen my moment, swoop down upon an unsuspecting kneeling cushion, the side doors opened and a funeral procession marched in . . .

It just wasn't going to happen that day . . .

But I shall return . . .

Alex

Dear Cathy,

Didn't you read Fr. Deacon Lance's post above where he says that that explanation for kneeling is no longer valid/the people don't see it that way any more?

So why do you persist in maintaining an old explanation that is no longer what it used to be?

Alex

I think they are comfortable with the way they have been socialised in to their Latinisms. Latinisms are more Catholic in the eyes of those who teach them. When the people have things explained to them properly and how their heritage was taken from them I think that many would be keen to stop it. In Australia we have kneeling all through the year. Makes no sense to have kneeling down prayers.

ICXC
NIKA

"Which brings up another Latinization, what do people "do" during the Communion Prayer?????"

???

What do you mean by "communion prayer"?

ICXC
NIKA

So what else in liturgy has been inherited from Latinization? What has been omitted?
What about closing the 'curtains' as I have seen in Orthodox liturgies?