I am worried about the future of the Byzantine Catholic church. I would appreciate comments and suggestions.

As many of you know there are a great many recent immigrants from Eastern Europe in the Northeast and the case in point is in New York City. Although I do not live in NYC now, I recently was at a function that had several people who attended my old church. I was dismayed to learn that a good number of them no longer at my old parish for several reasons:1/ The chapel in Brooklyn was closed. I know nothing about the reason but I do know there were a good number of people who attended services at the chapel. 2/ The priest in charge refuses to say the liturgy or any part of the liturgy in Old Church Slavonic. An old time parish member asked for the Our Father be said in old Slavonic. He refused. In my humble opinion St mary's will close not because there are not enough parishoners but because priest have there own agenda. When my parents and grandparents came here they flock to the Byzantine or Orthodox churches because they were familiar. I am not saying that the Liturgy should be entirely in Old church Slavonic but why not a part of it? Guaranteed these Eastern Europeans will come. I do have a sore point when I hear that a priest is to busy. I think they are busy playing politics in Passaic or Johnstown. The priests in the 1950's were busy. They traveled by public transportation to visit the sick, bless homes, say services for the deceased. The parish priest has to look at who is is suppose to be servicing.

We say a lot of our service (maybe not the divine liturgy) in Old Slavonic. St. C. & Meth.

Little Greenie,

I am sympathetic to your points, but I'm not sure we really have that many immigrants in New York. I would guess today's migrants from Carpatho-Ukraine speak standard Ukrainian and end up at St. George's or Holy Ghost. Holy Cross has the Hungarians who came in '56 but today Liturgy has the attendence of about the same numbers as the Last Supper. Do we have a large number of Greek Catholic Slovak immigrants in NYC? If so, yes, let us create a place for them at St. Elias or St. Mary's or re-open the chapel, which I believe has not been sold.

K.

Since 90, there have been significantly increased numbers of Russian immigrants in the DC area, and the way that this has been pastorally addressed by both the OCA and the ROCOR Cathedrals is to have *two* services -- one in English and one in Slavonic -- to accomodate the needs of respective parts of the parish community. While this arrangement has its downsides (it, in effect, serves to split the parish into two parishes), it does seem to serve the very real needs of the recent diaspora. In addition, the OCA Cathedral serves an Akathist on Sunday afternoons in Georgian to accomodate the needs of that growing immigrant community.

Brendan

The NYC parish has the title of their church in Slovak on the bulletin -- isn't that enough?

There is a huge number of Greek Catholic immigrant Carpathian People(tm) -- not Slovaks -- in the NYC area, particularly Brooklyn, but from the looks of things last Sunday, they are finding their way to St. Nicholas Carpathian People Orthodox Church on E. 10th Street. Their Liturgy was in Church Slavonic and English. In fact, most of the anaphora was sung by the priest in English, then in Slavonic (including the words of institution -- twice!).

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: RichC ]

6/19 Декабря
Св. Чудотворца Николая ( по-старому )
"СЪ ПРАЗДНИКОМЪ!'

Brendan,

I have been to St Nicholas Cathedral in DC for part of the Slavonic Vespers. Does the Slavonic-using Russian congregation there use the Julian calendar?

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Rich,

Really? I've never seen a huge number of people of any kind at St. Nicholas's CROGC Church. Is a Slavonic Liturgy (no sermon, no social or spiritual programs in their language) all these immigrants are seeking?

Do we have any real numbers on immigrants in Brooklyn?

K.

There wasn't a huge number at the Liturgy, perhaps 100 by the time it was over. And the homily was only in English (I was surprised the youngish priest did as well with Slavonic as he did). But they had a "visit with St. Nicholas" program downstairs afterward which surely serves the social function. I heard very little English being spoken. And the few people in that parish I know personally are immigrants.

This parish also hosts "Slovak dances" where most of those who attend speak po nashomu.

On total numbers, I'm only relating what my friend tells me who used to live in Brooklyn (until a year ago) and attended the 10th St. church. He has probably at least a dozen close relatives in Brooklyn who have come just in the last 5 years.

I was at a Sunday Liturgy about 6 years ago at the Brooklyn chapel and there were at least 75 people there or hanging outside. Aside from the priest & the cantor (Americans) I heard not one word of English spoken. Many of the people were young -- under 30.

A former member of the Brooklyn chapel told me that after it closed, most of the people either joined Holy Ghost Ukrainian Catholic Church in Brooklyn, St. Nicholas on 10th Street, or St. John Nepomucene RC Slovak church in Manhattan (upper east side). Or stopped going to church altogether.

Serge --

I think at this point that the Vigil at St. Nicholas Cathedral is bilingual. Yes, the Slavonic community there follows the Julian calendar, but sometimes Slavonic attendees choose to attend the N.C. festal services (notably on Western Christmas) -- even though these are served in English. The Slavonic community also includes most of the Georgians, and a few other non-Russians (although the majority of that particular Slavonic community is Russian -- St. Nicholas is one of the OCA parishes that was realy Russian from the start).

Brendan

You are missing my point. The point is -- why don't priest be more flexible. Why does it have to be their way? why can't they communicate on equal terms with all theor parishioners? Since Byzantine priest are not Married I would suggest that they be transferred to new parish once every 5 year

It seems the North American Ruthenian Church's period of contact with the old country — Rus', before Ukrainian nationalism really took off — ended with the building of the Iron Curtain, if not earlier — immigration basically ended because of World War I. People from the same parts who have arrived after World War II tend to identify as Ukrainian and gravitate towards the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Thus the Ruthenians are perhaps the most anglophone and Americanized of the Byzantine Churches in North America — English and the Gregorian calendar date from the 1950s, as does, perhaps less felicitously, the abandonment of the Orthodox paschalion. (Ironic, too, considering that a decade later the Vatican was telling them to re-Easternize.)

Having said that, if a Ruthenian church is the town's only semi-familiar landmark to new East Slavic immigrants, the Slavonic connection from the past would come in handy as a practical pastoral tool today.

Among Russians, the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic metropolia/OCA's decision to totally Americanize (dropping Slavonic and the Julian calendar) everywhere in the early 1970s was rash and badly handled, causing families (I know one — bilingual second-generation people whose priestly family were 1917-era exiles) and in some cases whole congregations to move to ROCOR. Like a less dramatic version of most RC churches' self-trashing in the same period, creating the Lefebvre movement. Actually it was similar psychologically in that the Metropolia people had been told not to go to the "uncanonical' ROCOR churches the Russian displaced persons started right after World War II.

While, like the OCA, the Ruthenian Church (now officially "the Byzantine Catholic Church'?) is primarily an American Church and that's fine, some flexibility on this and other issues about which Holy Tradition allows such leeway is the good middle way to go.

http://oldworldrus.com

I don't think anyone is our church thinks it this is a not a matter of congregational option. The question becomes how does a congregation make a decision. I cannot imagine a parish with a true consensus one way or another not following the consensus. In a congregation with differing opinions, all parties -- clerical and individual lay persons -- should seek and help develop consensus rather than insisting their point of view prevail.

K.

If you see the parish information at the OCA site you'll find that a lot of parishes if not most of them, use the Julian Calendar and some Church Slavonic. The Cathedral of St. Seraphim in Texas uses Serbian, OCS, Spanish and English (I don't remember the days but that's the way it works).

I attend St Mary's in NYC, and I must say that I believe the pastor to be a most holy man. I thank God that we have a wonderful servant of God. He has a great deal of patience in trying to serve in an American parish, yet use a lot of slavonic. Being Americans, many of us were not blessed with household or education with slavic language, only being able to learn english.

I AM sympathetic to europeans seeking home. But I think it vital that the first priority of our purpose be maintained. We attend liturgy to worship God. Socialization is secondary.

On the flip side of the criticism of the NYC situation, I tell you how I have been received by many europeans...

"so, where do you live...where do you work...how long have you been there...how much money do you make...how much is your rent...how is it that you came to this parish...I do not see you here...ARE YOU Byzantine...well you must be dating so and so...well you MUST be...well you MUST be...

I endure because I love our church and I love God. I am just an American from a poor family who did not have anyone to teach me slavic languages. I am greatful when there is english, then I may participate.

In my humble opinion, Father is a very saintly man, he works hard to meet everyone's spiritual needs.

With prayers,
Sharon

P.S. what is this junior member thing? I used to post occasionally before the site crash. So why am I junior?? I don't want to be junior, I want to be full member. Help

Sharon,

Thanks for the info about your life at St Mary's in New York.

Funny thing, language and whether or not it is picked up by second-generation kids (children of immigrants). It's so unpredictable. My girlfriend five years ago was born here to Russian refugees, picked up Russian as her first language — she even has a trace of a Russian accent when speaking English — and is totally bilingual now. Others, like a lovely friend whose parents came from Slovakia, grew up and pretty much remain one-language English speakers (she is learning Slovak as an adult, however).

The "junior member' status changes automatically to "member' after you post on the forum enough times — I forget how many.

http://oldworldrus.com

Thank you Serge,
I have full member status to look forward to

My father was the youngest in his family, with next older child about 15 years his senior. My mother a Baptist American. Then my parents divorced.

I, through pure grace managed to hold on to my Catholic gift, but I never had an opportunity to learn another language. Public school choices limited, so I studied some french, and quite loved that.

The peace of Christ

Yey, I'll get to be a "member"

Sharon

CHRISTOS ROZDAJETSJA!
SLAVITE JEHO!

Brendan wrote:"... Yes, the Slavonic community there follows the Julian calendar..."

If this is for St.Nicholas Cathedral in Washington, DC, the entire Cathedral is on the Gregorian Calendar. They have been since Metropolitan Theodosius changed the calendar back in the early 1980's.

They do have Slavonic services, vespers on Saturday evening and Divine Liturgy on Sunday morning.

The least servant of the servants of God....

Medved --

Actually, the Slavonic community at St. Nicholas Cathedral celebrates the great feast days (and some other prominent Russian feasts) according to the O.C. Last year, for example, His Beatitude served Christmas Liturgy twice -- once on 25 December and once, again, on 7 January.

Brendan

I have several comments

as a former member of St Mary's -- geography is one reason and the second reason is there is no socialization at the church. -- I remember Father when he was fresh out of seminary. And he was a very spirtual and kind man. But I think he has lost contact with his flock. I was disturbed when Father said he was to busy to have an evening service the night befor a funeral for a long time parishoner. Yes I do not know the whole story but I can't imagine what was so pressing that he could not rejuggle his schedule. Could he not comfort the family.

But I digress--I am not saying that the entire service should be in Slovonic. But you have to look at your audience and then service them. There is no reason why St mary's should not have a full church on Sunday morning. If that means that saying part of the mass in Slovonic so be it. It is part of our heritage. Our we not suppose to go back to our roots. Besides the melodies fit the SLovonic better.

To Rich -- not everyone is so spiritual. If that was the case we would all be Trappist monks or hermits praying to God. Man is a social creation of God. Does it not say it is not good for man to be alone. The church should be a community. An communities are diverse. So mix it up. A prayer here and there in Church Slovonic through out the mass would be good. As a community we do things-- many things together. We pray, we mourn, we socialize, we comfort each other.

If Socializing brings people together and to church that what our priest should be encouraging.

Liitle Green Coat

Dear Brendan,

Happy Armenian Christmas, Friend in Christ!

We recently had a bit of a "dust-up" with the parish priest over celebrating two calendars.

He is a "one calendar" sort of guy, (read "new").

He called in my father-in-law, who is the head of the parish committee, to say that "he just can't take it anymore" with celebrating two calendars.

Dad simply said, "Fine, let's stick to the Old Calendar, period."

Our priest was so taken by his convinced attitude that he immediately agreed!

I think you should go to the Old Calendar too, Brendan.

That way, your Christmases will be side by side, and, oh yes, don't forget the Boxing Day sales!

Alex

And this comment is directed at me why? I didn't even give my personal opinion about anything in this thread. I was merely relating my observations, none of which that I can see would merit such a remark.

Incidentally, was St. Mary's on 15th St. one of the multitude of churches in Manhattan that opened its doors for prayer on September 11? Or was it, like St. George's on 7th St., closed?

Wow, so much criticism.
I think that one good point IS that we don't know what is pressing and taking up the time of the ONLY priest for ALL 5 boroughs of NY. Perhaps we should thank God that Father has not collapsed and give him the benefit of his word...something was pressing.

Too much slavonic, not enough slavonic, old calender, new calender, too many calenders.

We cannot ALL have our particular way.

Let's pray to trust that the Holy Spirit is guiding our Church, knows better than we, and perhaps learn a little love and tolerance for the needs of others.

In Christ,
Sharon

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: roseofsharon ]

"I think you should go to the Old Calendar too, Brendan.

That way, your Christmases will be side by side, and, oh yes, don't forget the Boxing Day sales!"

Ah, yes, one of the big advantages of being on the O.C. Warning, joke coming: I've been told that the main advantage of being Old Calendar is that you have 13 days warning of the second coming and the final judgment -- so while all your New Calendar friends are being judged, you have 13 days left to, um, clean house.

Seriously, my wife doesn't celebrate Armenian Christmas -- we celebrate Christmas once, according to the N.C., as does our local Orthodox parish.

Brendan