The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
The Cub, P H, Hardrada, DMP, Kyrie Eleison
5601 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (Kyrie Eleison, theophan), 68 guests, and 73 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,728
Posts411,850
Members5,601
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Inherited Guilt #61235
09/04/03 03:41 PM
09/04/03 03:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Georgia
Logos - Alexis Offline OP
Member
Logos - Alexis  Offline OP
Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Georgia
This is not about Adam and Eve, Original Sin, and all that good stuff. Like this Forum needs that right now!

It's about the (supposed) inherited guilt of the Jews for killing Christ. I forgot the technical theological term (but it starts with a "c" I think) for what apparently was a Catholic doctrine prior to Vatican II. From what I've heard (this hearsay is solely based on untrustworthy secular sources, which is why I'm inquiring about this), the Catholic Church clearly taught, until the Second Vatican Council, that all Jews were individually responsible for the Death of Our Savior, because their ancestors at Golgatha said, "Let his blood be on us and our children."

Now, naturally I don't believe this. I want to know if this really was a pre-V2 Catholic doctrine, and if the Orthodox ever held this position. I've heard horror stories (again from secular and untrustworthy sources) regarding the Russian Orthodox Church and anit-Semitism. Naturally I am aware of what went on concerning the Jews during the reign of the Alexanders and Nicholases, and would definitely not associate the ROC with being anti-Semitic.

What are your thoughts on this topic? Was this position really held by the ancient Church? Was it a later Catholic development? Is it all just anti-Catholic/anti-Christian polemics?

Logos Teen

*Look at the number of my posts on the Forum, and then think about it.* eek

Re: Inherited Guilt #61236
09/04/03 03:55 PM
09/04/03 03:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,570
Glasgow, Scotland
O
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member
Our Lady's slave  Offline
Member
O

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,570
Glasgow, Scotland
Quote
Originally posted by Teen Of The Incarnate Logos:
This is not about Adam and Eve, Original Sin, and all that good stuff. Like this Forum needs that right now! ..........

Logos Teen

*Look at the number of my posts on the Forum, and then think about it.* eek
Teen - you have far too much time on your hands - as demonstrated by your comment about your post total.

Good job that is going to change any minute now biggrin biggrin biggrin

Re: Inherited Guilt #61237
09/04/03 04:09 PM
09/04/03 04:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
On The Way
H
Halychanyn Offline
Member
Halychanyn  Offline
Member
H

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
On The Way
Dear Teen:

Here's my very uneducated and amateur response.

First of all, the Gospels say what they say. Whether or not anyone said that "his blood is on us and on our children" is something that the scholars at the Jesus Seminar would probably have an opinion on. As for the question of what that phrase means in the current day, I'm not sure. It's one of those puzzlements for me as well.

As for anti-semitism in Eastern Europe, my second-hand information is that it had little, if anything, to do with the role that the Jewish people played (or didn't play) in the Crucifiction.

Yours,

kl

Re: Inherited Guilt #61238
09/04/03 04:32 PM
09/04/03 04:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
St. Louis, MO
L
LatinTrad Offline
Member
LatinTrad  Offline
Member
L

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
St. Louis, MO
Krylos you are correct: anti-Semitism in western Europe had a lot more to do with the real or alleged political activities/loyalties of the Ashkenazim.

Logos Teen, you are correct in identifying that alleged "dogma" as a bunch of horse manure.

THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS "PRE-VATICAN II" AND "POST-VATICAN II" CATHOLIC DOGMATA. mad mad CATHOLIC DOGMA IS CATHOLIC DOGMA, PERIOD. IS, WAS, ALWAYS WILL BE.

Vatican II CLEARLY specified, in a cautionary note that Pope Paul VI wanted attached to EVERY published edition of V2, that it was not the intention of the Council to make ANY doctrinal definitions, unless they specifically stated they were doing so on a particular issue. There is a lot of nonsense out there about things that were "dogmas of the Church before Vatican II," but that is nonsense. Anything that was a dogma before Vatican II is STILL a dogma today.

The Church has NEVER taught that individual Jews, alive today, are personally responsible for the death of Christ. Scripture, on the other hand, DOES teach that God's wrath was visited upon Israel (and upon Jerusalem in particular) because she "did not recognize the hour of [her] visitation," i.e. the Christ came and His royal city rejected Him. The punishment for this was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, and the continued possession of the Temple precincts by non-Jews unto ages of ages.

LatinTrad

Re: Inherited Guilt #61239
09/04/03 05:38 PM
09/04/03 05:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 323
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
Columcille Offline
Member
Columcille  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 323
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
We are ALL individually responsible for His death. It was mine and your sins that nailed Him to the cross.

Ultimately, I find this debate to be moot. Our LORD Himslef stated that "no man takes my life from me, but I lay it down willingly."

The guilt is on all our heads.

Columcille

Re: Inherited Guilt #61240
09/04/03 05:49 PM
09/04/03 05:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
St. Louis, MO
L
LatinTrad Offline
Member
LatinTrad  Offline
Member
L

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
St. Louis, MO
Quote
Originally posted by Columcille:
We are ALL individually responsible for His death. It was mine and your sins that nailed Him to the cross.

Ultimately, I find this debate to be moot. Our LORD Himslef stated that "no man takes my life from me, but I lay it down willingly."

The guilt is on all our heads.

Columcille
This is true. But certain individuals who were involved also have a different kind of guilt, e.g. "woe to him by whom the Son of man is betrayed," and "Those who handed me over to you are guilty of the greater sin."

Of course we cannot judge anyone; and Christ Himself did not die before asking the Father to forgive his executioners.

"I have sinned in betraying innocent blood." -Judas

LatinTrad

Re: Inherited Guilt #61241
09/04/03 06:50 PM
09/04/03 06:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,716
Sacramento, Ca
Brian Offline
Member
Brian  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,716
Sacramento, Ca
There was a change in emphasis in the Roman Church's view of the Jewish people just before the Council and during thr Council. For example, the striking out of that terrible epithet "Perfidious Jews" during the Good Friday Services (by John XXIII) and also the Decree "Nostra Aetate" during the Council. These were desperately needed changes!

Re: Inherited Guilt #61242
09/04/03 06:54 PM
09/04/03 06:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
On The Way
H
Halychanyn Offline
Member
Halychanyn  Offline
Member
H

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
On The Way
Dear Latin Trad:

RE: your point about the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. On one hand, it's easy to see it a pubishment to the Jews for their alleged role in the Crucifiction.

But, on the other hand, Christian theology (East and West) teaches that Christ indeed came into this world to die. There is a line of thinking that holds that Judas and his alleged co-conspirators could do nothing else than to play their role, so to speak, in the redemption of Mankind.

I don't claim to have any answers here, only issues to ponder.

Yours,

kl

Re: Inherited Guilt #61243
09/04/03 07:00 PM
09/04/03 07:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
On The Way
H
Halychanyn Offline
Member
Halychanyn  Offline
Member
H

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
On The Way
Dear Brian et al:

Just to add something on the Liturgical point, there are several places in the Matins of Great and Holy Friday in the Byzantine Rite which speak disparigingly of the Jewish people.

There is even one spot wherein they are referred to as the "Godless Nation." Other places talk of their lack of gratitude for their deliverance from Egypt, and still others talk of Christ's saying to them that for this he will call to himself other nations.

Interpret this how you will.

Yours,

kl

Re: Inherited Guilt #61244
09/04/03 07:12 PM
09/04/03 07:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Georgia
Logos - Alexis Offline OP
Member
Logos - Alexis  Offline OP
Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Georgia
Quote
LatinTrad said: THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS "PRE-VATICAN II" AND "POST-VATICAN II" CATHOLIC DOGMATA. CATHOLIC DOGMA IS CATHOLIC DOGMA, PERIOD. IS, WAS, ALWAYS WILL BE.
Definitely. I would never think otherwise. But of course this is the spin the secular media puts on the situation, so I was simply restating their unfortunate and misinformed prejudices.

Quote
Anhelyna said: Teen - you have far too much time on your hands - as demonstrated by your comment about your post total.
Well, I'm home sick(ish) today from school, so I definitely DO have a lot of time on my hands.

Quote
Krylos Leader said: There is a line of thinking that holds that Judas and his alleged co-conspirators could do nothing else than to play their role, so to speak, in the redemption of Mankind.
But we mustn't forget about free will, something that everyone, including Judas, possess(ed).

Logos Teen

Re: Inherited Guilt #61245
09/04/03 07:13 PM
09/04/03 07:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,716
Sacramento, Ca
Brian Offline
Member
Brian  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,716
Sacramento, Ca
Yes, Kl and some of those verses DO make me cringe every Holy and GReat Week. But I just try to remember the fact that it was ALL of us as sinners that rejected Our Lord. That is the only way I can see to get through those pretty dreadful verses in the Services eek

Re: Inherited Guilt #61246
09/04/03 07:26 PM
09/04/03 07:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
On The Way
H
Halychanyn Offline
Member
Halychanyn  Offline
Member
H

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 845
On The Way
Dear Brian:

Absolutely. It is indeed best to remeber that "Israel" means (loosely) "God's people" and it is easily seen as a metaphor for all of us.

Yours,

kl

Re: Inherited Guilt #61247
09/06/03 05:48 AM
09/06/03 05:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Illinois
L
Lawrence Offline
Member
Lawrence  Offline
Member
L

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Illinois
I think we have to clearly distinguish between those Jews such as the Apostles who very clearly adhered to the law of Moses, and the teachings of the prophets, and those Jews like the Pharisees and Sadducees who completely corrupted the Mosaic Law and followed the oral tradition from Babylon. It was to those latter Jews that Jesus said "For if you believed Moses you would believe me also"(St John 5:46) and of whom St Paul referred to in (1 Thess 2:14-16) "you also have suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they have from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and have persecuted us. They are displeasing to God , and are hostile to all men" It is also this same group who St John says of "those who say they are Jews and are not , but are a synagogue of Satan" (Apocalypse 2:9,10)


Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1
(Release build 20190129)
PHP: 7.1.32 Page Time: 0.020s Queries: 13 (0.004s) Memory: 2.5952 MB (Peak: 2.6897 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2019-09-23 13:51:49 UTC