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Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints #61904 11/18/03 04:46 PM
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Fr Mark Offline
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So is the root of sainthood the grace of the Holy Spirit or the seal of the pope?

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints #61905 11/18/03 05:27 PM
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Sainthood comes from a much higher source than either the Pope or the Holy Spirit - the Roman Curia! biggrin

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints #61906 11/18/03 05:37 PM
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Scotus Offline
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Quote
He says that unless the Pope has canonized them, Rome does not recognize them as saints and we shouldn't either.
Tammy, I would propose that your husband has a less than complete understanding of canonization.

Canonization, while a definitive sign of heavenly presence, carries with it much more.

A Canonized Saint, in addition to dying in a State of Grace, also exibited a life of 'heroic virtue'.

A Catholic might venerate any who now reside at the foot of the Throne. This, by definintion, would include those who have not been canonizted.

A case would be an infant who died shortly after baptism. The infant's family may rightly seek the heavenly intercession of their lost child as a private devotion. The child is truely a Saint, just not canonized. The child's short life would probably not provide much a lesson to the faithful, but the child is still a Saint.

The life of an Orthodox, who , while holy, might have been 'less than charitable' to his Catholic brothers may not provide what some would consider a valuable life lesson, but that a private devotion to one in heaven is ALWAYS permissable.

Besides, you can always tell your husband "Well, he's Catholic now" wink

-Brendan

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints #61907 11/18/03 07:25 PM
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I didn't say I agree with him! biggrin

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints #61908 11/18/03 07:31 PM
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You're not supposed to. You're his wife.
Lauro

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints #61909 11/18/03 08:55 PM
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Tammy Offline
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Well said!

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints #61910 11/18/03 09:43 PM
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When it comes to EC veneration of Orthodox saints, I am very curious about the following:

What about the case of Alexis Toth?
Why is he regarded and venerated as a saint by some Byzantine Catholics?

Recently, an icon of Alexis Toth was added to the icons in my parish church, to the disagreement of several parishioners. A question often asked is, "Why is there an icon of Alexis Toth and not of Saint Josaphat or the other Eastern Catholic saints?"

Saints are seen as those who lived lives of heroic virtue, and are canonized as role models for us to follow. How is Alexis Toth seen as a role model for some Byzantine Catholics? Was he not canonized for having "returned" to Orthodoxy?
We, as Catholics, believe that the fullness of the Christian faith is found only in the Catholic Church. How can some Byzantine Catholics venerate an Orthodox saint who left the fullness of the Christian faith?

There is a difference when it comes to venerating Orthodox saints who have always been Orthodox and those who were former Catholics.

Yes, Fr. Toth should have been treated better by the Roman Catholic clergy, but that still does not-in my book-warrant leaving Catholicism. There are other saints who were not treated that well by the Church- such as St. Pio- but they did not leave the Church.

Of those who do regard Alexis Toth as a saint, I will greatly appreciate your input. May Our Lord bless you.

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints #61911 11/19/03 08:14 AM
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Fr Mark Offline
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"We, as Catholics, believe that the fullness of the Christian faith is found only in the Catholic Church."

We, as Orthodox , believe that the fullness of the Christian faith is found only in the Catholic Church.

Catholic Church - what's the Catholic Church?

... depends where you're standing!

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints #61912 11/19/03 01:52 PM
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Dmitri Rostovski Offline
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Amin, Batushka,

I firmly believe that if St. Alexis lived today, he would not have chosen the path he did. He should be venerated by us as a model of dedication to his Tradition. By re-claiming our Orthopraxis, we are basically doing the same thing he did just not with the jurisdictional change.

Dmitri

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints #61913 11/19/03 02:56 PM
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Griego,

The Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox Churches as true particular Churches, so they have the right to glorify those they feel worthy as saints. In the event of reunion are we to expect them to remove from the calendar all those post-schism saints they glorified because Rome did not canonize them? I don't see that we have any choice but to recognize the saints glorified by the Orthodox. Of course, until reunion some will remain controversial and official services won't be possible.

Also remember St. Alexis was refused faculties by the Archbishop Ireland and the other Latin bishops so he did not have much of a choice but to leave. Without his schism who knows if Rome would have been motivated to erect a jurisdiction for us? I believe his leaving the Catholic Church was ultimately necessary for the survival of our Church. To honor St. Alexis is to honor someone who refused to compromise our traditions or allow our Church to be assimilated into the majority. The Catholic Church has vindicated his position if not his actual leaving.

In Christ,
Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints #61914 11/20/03 01:41 PM
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Slava Isusu Chrystu!

well said arturo! what an inspiration to hear such words of unity among Christians, hear on earth and those who are with God.

from what i got at the EWTN Forum more about 2 years ago is like what arturo said, that saint of both communion be venerated by both of the faithful because we all have one source to return to and all of the saint are now with His company.

since then i ventured out to learn the Saints of the Orthodox/Greek-catholic churches and was greatly inspired by the examples of St. Alexis by his courage to take lead and be a real shepherd to his flock.

A0nd together with the orthodox here, we share St. Nicolas of Myra with his upcoming feast.

Glory to Him forever!
eumir

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