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Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62274 03/21/03 05:15 AM
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Gideon Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by anastasios:
Friends, I am being oversimplistic, I admit. I know there are substantial differences in some respects between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. However, I don't think that qualifies one from being the Church and the other from not.

In Christ,

anastasios
How modern & latin...


Abba Isidore the Priest:
When I was younger and remained in my cell I set no limit to prayer; the night was for me as much the time of prayer as the day.
(p. 97, Isidore 4)
Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62275 03/21/03 07:41 AM
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anastasios Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Gideon:
How modern & latin...
What are you talking about?

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62276 03/21/03 11:34 AM
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Jenny Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by anastasios:

anastasios
(who has communed in every apostolic Communion [i.e. Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East])
That is so cool! I would love to commune with every apostolic Communion, too.

Janka

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62277 03/21/03 04:48 PM
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Dear Anastasios,

You da man!

You will be not only a good Church leader, but a great one - of that there can be no doubt, Big Guy!

Alex

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62278 03/23/03 05:46 AM
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ByzantineAscetic Offline OP
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Dear: Gedion,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

The Catholic and Orthodox Church's are still
"The Church" because they still have valid, Apostolic Succession, Valid Orders, and Sacraments.

From: Daniel
In The Holy + Theotokos
A Byzantine Catholic

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62279 03/23/03 11:25 PM
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Logos - Alexis Offline
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Well, I hate to beat a dead horse, but where has the Catholic Church *officially and infallibly* proclaimed that it is not the Church? The most I have heard is that other Christians are somehow connected to the Church (and it is always emphasized that this connection is especially close with the Orthodox Churches), but never denying the reality that the Catholic Church is The Church. "The Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church."

Logos Teen

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62280 03/25/03 05:20 AM
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ByzantineAscetic Offline OP
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Hey guys do you have any book i could read on the issue, ome thhing before im chrismated in the Byzantine Catholic Ruthenian Church, on April 12th Holy Saturday.

Im going to read the Greek Orthodox Archeparchy website, about some stuff. Thanks for the intresting and non-argumentative respones.

From: Daniel
In the Holy+Theotokos

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62281 03/25/03 04:15 PM
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Inawe Offline
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Dear Daniel,

Congratulations on your upcoming Chrismation. May the Spirit bless you with the riches that He has prepared for you in the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Steve

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62282 03/26/03 12:51 PM
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Dear Anastasios,

You raise a good point re: that Ecumenical Patriarch and Moscovite Patriarch were out of communion for two weeks in 1996.

Yes, they could still both be "in the Church" during those two weeks, but only under the concept used to understand the position of a penitent as being "in the Church" but abstaining from the chalice for a period of time as the result of sin. During that time of pennance, were the penitent to die, for example, he or she would be burried as an Orthodox Christian. Catechumens are treated the same way.

But what you are asserting, that while Rome and Orthodoxy can be openly affirming for hundreds of years that they are not in communion, but still they are both "the Church" is ludicrous, frankly. It blurs all of our understanding of what it means to be in or out of communion. Neither Eastern Church nor Western Church has repented to the other of her refusal to accept the universal jurisdiction of the Pope (Eastern refusal to repent - [thank God!]) or her dogmatic errors (Western refusal to repent).

Your confession or boast (you may choose what to call it) that you have "communed in every Apostolic Communion" seems to reveal this better than any of your previous posts.

Wishing you a blessed feast of the Annunciation!

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62283 03/27/03 03:20 AM
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Dear Anastasios,

Where Peter is, THERE is the Church. It was an ealy Church Father who stated: If one was to abandon the Chair of Peter, could he really know if he was in the Church?

With the love of Christ,
Michael

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62284 03/27/03 05:14 PM
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Dear Mike:

So, in essence, your argument is that our bretheren the Orthodox (big-O) are not a part of the Christ's church because they have abandoned the Chair of Peter. Please clarify.

Yours,

kl

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62285 03/27/03 05:22 PM
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Logos - Alexis Offline
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Krylos,

Is this not the Catholic Church's official stance, as well as the Orthodox Churches vice versa/from their point of view?

Logos Teen

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62286 03/27/03 05:33 PM
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Andrew J. Rubis Offline
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There is a Catholic Church centered in Rome (that includes the Eastern Catholic Churches) and an (Orthodox) Catholic Church with centers in Constantinople, Antioch (Damascus), Alexandria, and Jerusalem. These two Churches both claim to be the one true Church and they are not in communion with each other (despite the sincere and healthy desire of many participants here that they would be). They still have differences to resolve.

The Oriental Orthodox add "a third wheel" to the problem at hand.

Some leaders have referred to the two Churches as "the two lungs" of the body of Christ or as "sister Churhces." However, these same leaders not claimed them to be in communion with one another. We should not presume to go beyond what our leaders teach, unless we are willing to challenge their teaching.

In Christ,
Andrew

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62287 03/27/03 05:50 PM
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anastasios Offline
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Originally posted by MikeJG0185:
Dear Anastasios,

Where Peter is, THERE is the Church. It was an ealy Church Father who stated: If one was to abandon the Chair of Peter, could he really know if he was in the Church?

With the love of Christ,
Michael
Dear in Christ Mike,

St. Ignatius of Antioch framed the Church in this way: "Where the bishop is, there let the multitude (of believers) be; even as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Ad Smyr., viii., 2)

The Church is where CHRIST is, not where Peter is. And Christ is where the Eucharist is. The Eucharist is where a bishop is. They are all tied together. Each local Church is THE Church in its fullness; each local Church IS the Catholic Church. If all Churches in the world except the Diocese of Timbuktu were blown up by a nuclear bomb, according to Eastern understanding the Church would still be complete. The West believes that the Papacy is necessary for the Church to be complete (which makes me wonder what would happen if the Cardinals could not elect a new Pope, as once happened for 2 years in papal history?)
The East says that each local Church under its bishop is THE CHURCH and they share the Eucharist, which makes them one with other local, full Churches. "Catholic" did not mean "universal" in the early Church but rather "fullness".

Sorry to get sidetracked. The East also believes that ALL bishops are Peter. Here are two quotes to demonstrate this; I could amass more but two suffice. A good book is J. Meyendorff, ed. The Primacy of Peter Crestwood, NY: St. Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary Press, 1992, which explains thorougly and non-polemically the Orthodox (Eastern position) on the Papacy. Many Eastern Catholics would probably say that that is what they believe as well, only they would recognize that the primacy continues to exist in Rome whereas Orthodox do not see this as the case any longer (for the most part).

The great Origen, master biblical exegete, had this to say (Origen was later condemned for heresy, but that for which he was condemned was totally distinct from that which he writes here):

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But if you suppose that upon that one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, "The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it," hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, "Upon this rock I will build My church"? Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, "I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven," be common to the others, how shall not all the things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them? For in this place these words seem to be addressed as to Peter only, "Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven," etc; but in the Gospel of John the Saviour having given the Holy Spirit unto the disciples by breathing upon them said, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit," etc. Many then will say to the Saviour, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God;" but not all who say this will say it to Him, as not at all having learned it by the revelation of flesh and blood but by the Father in heaven Himself taking away the veil that lay upon their heart, in order that after this "with unveiled face reflecting as a mirror the glory of the Lord" they may speak through the Spirit of God saying concerning Him, "Lord Jesus," and to Him, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." And if any one says this to Him, not by flesh and blood revealing it unto Him but through the Father in heaven, he will obtain the things that were spoken according to the letter of the Gospel to that Peter, but, as the spirit of the Gospel teaches, to every one who becomes such as that Peter was. For all bear the surname of "rock" who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of the rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters. And taking occasion from these things you will say that the righteous bear the surname of Christ who is Righteousness, and the wise of Christ who is Wisdom. And so in regard to all His other names, you will apply them by way of surname to the saints; and to all such the saying of the Saviour might be spoken, "Thou art Peter," etc., down to the words, "prevail against it." But what is the "it"? Is it the rock upon which Christ builds the church, or is it the church? For the phrase is ambiguous. Or is it as if the rock and the church were one and the same? This I think to be true; for neither against the rock on which Christ builds the church, nor against the church will the gates of Hades prevail; just as the way of a serpent upon a rock, according to what is written in the Proverbs, cannot be found. Now, if the gates of Hades prevail against any one, such an one cannot be a rock upon which Christ builds the church, nor the church built by Jesus upon the rock; for the rock is inaccessible to the serpent, and it is stronger than the gates of Hades which are opposing it, so that because of its strength the gates of Hades do not prevail against it; but the church, as a building of Christ who built His own house wisely upon the rock, is incapable of admitting the gates of Hades which prevail against every man who is outside the rock and the church, but have no power against it.
Origen, Commentary on Matthew complete text here

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If any one consider and examine these things, there is no need for lengthened discussion and arguments. There is easy proof for faith in a short summary of the truth. The Lord speaks to Peter,10 saying, "I say unto thee, that thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."11 And again to the same He says, after His resurrection, "Feed nay sheep."12 And although to all the apostles, after His resurrection, He gives an equal power, and says, "As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you: Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they shall be remitted unto him; and whose soever sins ye retain, they shall be retained; "13 yet, that He might set forth unity, He arranged by His authority the origin of that unity, as beginning from one. Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity.14 Which one Church, also, the Holy Spirit in the Song of Songs designated in the person of our Lord, and says, "My dove, my spotless one, is but one. She is the only one of her mother, elect of her that bare her."15 Does he who does not hold this unity of the Church think that he holds the faith? Does he who strives against and resists the Church16 trust that he is in the Church, when moreover the blessed Apostle Paul teaches the same thing, and sets forth the sacrament of unity, saying, "There is one body and one spirit, one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God? "17
St. Cyprian, On the Unity of the Catholic Church complete text here

Hope this gets you started on the road of exploration. One more book recommendation if I may: J. Zizioulas, Being As Communion also by SVS Press.

In Christ,

anastasios

Re: "First Among Equals" Cath/Ortho Perspective #62288 03/27/03 06:03 PM
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Dear Andrew:


The 4 centers you mentioned have long ceased to be the "centers" of Orthodoxy, or of Christianity for that matter: they are a mere shadow of their old selves.

Pitiably, these so-called centers have declining influence on Orthodoxy in general, the foremost reason, I believe, is their being engulfed now in a sea of Muslim believers.

As to calling your Church, (Orthodox) Catholic Church, well . . .uhmm!


AmdG

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