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Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62639
11/11/04 11:09 PM
11/11/04 11:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 287
Abington, PA USA
JoeS Offline
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I simply sit back and shake my head. How can you be both same, distinct and different? Sounds like a bad dream.

JoeS

//What does “communion with Rome” mean?

It means that we have Eucharistic communion with Rome. It means that we accept her teachings as valid and submit to the authority of Peter.

It does not mean that we give up our Byzantine Orthodox theology and liturgy in favor of Latin Catholic theology and liturgy. The Church existed for its first millennium with two distinct approaches to theology (Eastern and Western), so anyone who tells you that such a communion is not possible simply does not acknowledge the historical reality.//

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62640
11/11/04 11:44 PM
11/11/04 11:44 PM
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djs Offline
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Quote
I simply sit back and shake my head. How can you be both same, distinct and different? Sounds like a bad dream.
Sounds like the Persons of the Trinity. Sounds like the people in a marriage. Sounds like the Church.

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62641
11/12/04 02:19 AM
11/12/04 02:19 AM
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Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
OrthoMan Offline
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[What does “communion with Rome” mean?]

It's your own 'code Of Canons Of The Eastern Church' that defines what being in 'communion with Rome' means. Somehow you all tend to ignore that fact -

Canon 43The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office(munus) given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of theApostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of thecollege of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entireChurch on earth; therefore, in virtue of his office (munus) heenjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power inthe Church which he can always freely exercise.

Canon 451. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not onlyhas power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy ofordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them bywhich the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishopspossess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded. 2. The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling theoffice (munus) of the supreme pastor of the Church is alwaysunited in communion with the other bishops and with the entireChurch; however, he has the right, according to the needs of theChurch, to determine the manner, either personal or collegial, ofexercising this function. 3. There is neither appeal nor recourse against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.

Canon 571. The erection, restoration, modification and suppression ofpatriarchal Churches is reserved to the supreme authority of theChurch. 2. Only the supreme authority of the Church can modify the legitimately recognized or conceded title of each patriarchal Church. 3. If it is possible, a patriarchal Church musthave a permanent see for the residence of the patriarch in aprincipal city inside its own territory from which the patriarchtakes his title; this see cannot be transferred except for a mostgrave reason and with the consent of the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church and the assent of the Roman Pontiff.

Canon 58Patriarchs of Eastern Churches precede all bishops of any degreeeverywhere in the world, with due regard for special norms ofprecedence established by the Roman Pontiff.

=========

Canon 921. The patriarch is to manifest hierarchical communion with theRoman Pontiff, successor of Saint Peter, through the loyalty,veneration and obedience which are due to the supreme pastor ofthe entire Church. 2. The patriarch must make a commemorationof the Roman Pontiff as a sign of full communion with him in theDivine Liturgy and divine praises according to the prescriptionsof the liturgical books and to see that it is done faithfully byall the bishops and other clerics of the Church over which hepresides. 3. It is to be the custom for the patriarch to visitthe Roman Pontiff and, according to the norms established especially for this, to send to him a report concerning the state ofthe Church over which he presides. Within a year of his electionand then often during his tenure in office, he is to make a visitto Rome to venerate the tombs of apostles Peter and Paul andpresent himself to the successor of Saint Peter in primacy overthe entire Church.

==========

Canon 1551. A metropolitan Church sui iuris is presided over by a metropolitan of a determined see who is appointed by the RomanPontiff and assisted by a council of hierarchs according to thenorm of law. 2. It is solely the right of the supreme authority of the Church to erect, modify, suppress and define theterritorial boundaries of metropolitan Churches sui iuris.

Canon 1561. Within three months after episcopal ordination or, if already ordained a bishop, after the enthronement, the metropolitanis bound by the obligation to petition the pallium from the RomanPontiff, which is a sign of his metropolitan power and full communion of the metropolitan Church sui iuris with the Roman Pontiff. 2. Prior to the imposition of the pallium, the metropolitan cannot convoke the council of hierarchs or ordain bishops.

You can go through the entire Code Of Canons of your church at -

http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG1199.HTM


-------------

OrthoMan

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62642
11/12/04 03:28 AM
11/12/04 03:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
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Bob, thanks for correctly quoting Canon Law. Not sure there is an argument to follow, but I congratulate your quoting abilities.

Given the historical difficulties with Estonia vs. Moscow, Greece vs. Constantinople, I for one am glad we have some objective determination of primacy and know "who's on first", amongst other examples that can be cited.

Canon law is certainly not dogma nor theology and is most definitely subject to development according to orthopraxis. This law, as many have pointed out, is definitely flawed. I for one clamor louder than many on Rome's actions speficially related to the Ukrainian and Russian Catholics. But we'll get there. We've gotten a long way in the last 40 years via Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Orientale Lumen, etc.

We are in communion because we want to be, so get over it.

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62643
11/12/04 03:54 AM
11/12/04 03:54 AM
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Philadelphia, PA
OrthoMan Offline
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[We are in communion because we want to be, so get over it.]

Then quit complaining and claiming a freedom and independence that doesn't exist. And be the obedient servants to the 'Vicar Of Christ' you are expected to be by that very communion.

OrthoMan

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62644
11/12/04 03:54 AM
11/12/04 03:54 AM
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Oregon
DTBrown Offline
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Well put, Diak.

I don't think anyone in Rome would imagine the current Eastern Code would work in a reunited Church. It's obviously an interim document.

Having said that, I don't reject the basic principles behind communion with Rome. (I did at one time but have made peace with the concept of a Petrine ministry in the Church.) I do think some changes could (and should) be made.

I also think once we get over the latinization thing and fully embrace our heritage, we could become "guinea pigs" for some revisions in the Code which would reflect a more authentic approach to the ancient canons. This could also become a demonstration of what ecclesial unity could be.

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62645
11/12/04 04:08 AM
11/12/04 04:08 AM
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Oregon
DTBrown Offline
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OrthoMan,

Even in one of the darkest hours for the papacy when Pope Vigilius' reputation was exposed by Emperor Justinian for what it was--he really was a bit of a scoundrel...and I'm being nice smile --there was still a need expressed by the 5th Ecumenical Council to remain in communion with the Apostolic See of Rome. According to JND Kelly (Anglican):

[Justinian] then ordered the pope's name to be struck from the diptychs, making it clear, however, that he was severing communion with him
personally, not with the holy see.
Page 62 of the Oxford Dictionary of the Popes.

(The expression used was non sedem sed sedentem, "not the seat but the sitter." Remaining in communion with the Apostolic See of Rome was viewed as necessary despite the failings of its Patriarch.)

Certainly, there have been ups and downs for the Eastern Churches which have sought communion with Rome but preserving the unity of the whole Church with the Apostolic See is worth it, in our view.

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62646
11/12/04 11:41 AM
11/12/04 11:41 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
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Then quit complaining and claiming a freedom and independence that doesn't exist.
Any brother in a family can complain on how he is treated by the elder brother. Anyone suffering from unjust treatment has not only the right but the obligation to admonish his brother.

The monks of Esphigmenou didn't like how they were treated by the EP, no? Neither did Christodolous? Estonia didn't like how it was treated by the MP? The KP? ROCOR? HOCNA? We can go on and on with other examples but the ludicrosity of that retort is apparent.


Quote
Then quit complaining and claiming a freedom and independence that doesn't exist. And be the obedient servants to the 'Vicar Of Christ' you are expected to be by that very communion.
To ours and Rome's credit in the last 40 years we have made immense strides in restoring tradition. We are trying to be just that according to the vision of Orientale Lumen and Slavorum Apostoli, Ut Unum Sint and Unitatis Redintegratio. Thanks for the reminder.

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62647
11/12/04 02:23 PM
11/12/04 02:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline OP
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Dear Orthoman,

You are right.

I should not be able to think out loud and develop my thoughts about religion as I grown spiritually.

That is simply not on.

In actual fact, I don't see where the contradiction in what I've written is all about.

If someone asked me who I am spiritually, I would say "Ukrainian Catholic."

Not "Orthodox in communion with Rome" since I think, as you would agree, that would prove confusing.

And Orthodox would object to any church using that title formally.

The article in question arose as a result of a dispute in our community over a prayerbook to be published by the UGCC as for "Orthodox in communion with Rome."

I objected to that title and I led the fight to stop it from being published that way. It wasn't.

Do you object to me having done that?

I believe, as I've written elsewhere on that site, that Ukrainian Catholics and Orthodox have much in common and should try to always emphasize what they do have in common, work together etc.

Why didn't you quote those articles? Not there yet?

But I believe, as EC's and ORthodox in our community believe, that we should not mix "beans with cabbage" when it comes to terminology.

Also, aren't you the one who is always most vocal about decrying so many Ukrainian Orthodox as "uncanonical" and like the SSPX? (the UOC-KP etc.).

That position of yours would be quite offensive to Ukrainian CAtholics AND all Ukrainian Orthodox, including the ones in union with Constantinople.

Quoting something out of context is simply not on, Big Guy.

You should learn to have some respect for EC's and encourage them when they want to become as Eastern as possible, even to the point of calling themselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome."

The Ukrainian Orthodox Metropolitan Ilarion Ohienko wrote of this in his Ukrainian-language studies and said how sad it was when the "UKrainian Uniates forgot that, in their essence, they were Orthodox."

And Met. Ohienko was no friend of the Uniates!

And what about when Orthodox jurisdictions formally called themselves "Greek-CAtholic?" Perhaps we should get upset too?

As for my work on the site you quote from, they know I am Ukrainian Greek-Catholic who is sympathetic to Ukrainian Orthodoxy.

And whenever they so wish, they may eject me from that site and refuse to have anything to do with me.

But they haven't after all these years.

And when, once or twice, someone wrote in to demand I be removed, they all came to my defence and asked that I remain - even after I submitted my resignation.

I understand where you are coming from and I know that for EC's to use the term "Orthodox" affects the issue of "Orthodox faith" in the first instance.

As I've said before, so I say now, you are right.

If my Orthodox friends tell me the title is offensive, I take them at their word.

If you feel I've been two-faced on the matter, well, you've said that before.

I don't understand your vituperance towards me, however.

The person divided is really you, Sir.

You say you are my friend, and yet you manage to write what you have just now.

I find that unacceptable. I found Jennifer's viciousness toward me, for that is what it was, unacceptable.

And why should I remain where I'm still an object of attack and derision?

I'll stay where I'm appreciated which is "Ukrainian Orthodoxy."

I forgive you though.

Don't go away mad. It is I who have learned my lesson and don't have the nerves to put up with this nonsense any longer.

Nor do I feel I should. Sometimes the deeply unChristian anger or other negative stuff that comes across is simply something that is a total turnoff.

Good-bye to you and to this forum of wonderful people.

This time, I've no reason to return.

Alex

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62648
11/12/04 02:44 PM
11/12/04 02:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Oregon
DTBrown Offline
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I should not be able to think out loud and develop my thoughts about religion as I grown spiritually.
Alex,

If one does a search on the CINEAST archives (94-98) and there may even be some old posts here that may have survived the server crash, one will find many evidences of my spiritual growth. Who I am now is different from what I was then. Yet I am the same person.

I am grateful to the Administrator for providing this place for all of us to grow spiritually (in whatever direction we're led). Part of that growth for me is to have you here...for you have been a real encouragement. I think many others would say the same. Hoping you'll re-consider and share your journey with us.

In Christ,

Dave

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62649
11/12/04 02:45 PM
11/12/04 02:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,235
Philadelphia
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Andrew J. Rubis Offline
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Dear Alex,

In order to be part of the conciliar Church (Rome and those in communion with her are conciliar, right? wink ), one must sit at the table and stand around the altar with the brethren.

You will be back (again wink ) because your heart is in the conciliar Eastern Church.

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62650
11/12/04 02:45 PM
11/12/04 02:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Church Militant
Gaudior Offline
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Dear Alex...

Enough, already. You know full well that no one on this forum condones what Orthodoc and Jennifer have said. You are respected by everyone on this forum save a few.

Quitting dramatically is not the answer...stay, and work out your issues with them, or, allow them the opportunity to bury themselves so deeply that it is clear to all who is to blame and who is not.

Gaudior, who wishes you would remain...

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62651
11/12/04 02:51 PM
11/12/04 02:51 PM
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Dear Orthoman:

Enough, already. Didn't your mother teach you that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all?

Gaudior, who resents that you insist on calling yourself Orthodox when you speak with such lack of charity.

Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62652
11/12/04 02:51 PM
11/12/04 02:51 PM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,157
Washington, PA
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Alex,

I will not ask you to stay becasue I think that after you cool down you will remain on your own. I must say I am a bit surprised that you are surprised at Bob's actions as they are quite representative of his behavior here and at oc.net. He has been warned numerous times and offers the same lame excuses for his behavior. He will argue for hours about his right to use the title Catholic but then deny us the right to the title Orthodox. I am tired of his double standard and mean spirited posting. He has offended his greatest defender here and still probably doesn't get it. I would urge you to stay, hold him accountable, and don't allow him to bully you or anyone else here.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: What does "Communion with Rome" mean? #62653
11/12/04 02:58 PM
11/12/04 02:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline OP
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Dear Fr. Deacon Lance,

I'll think about it, but I'll take a break and work on the other site as I've neglected it for too long.

Perhaps I'll write an article on Bob - (just joking!)

I don't know why I get hit with stuff - perhaps it's just because I'm such a wonderful person, do you suppose? smile

I think everyone has had enough out of me for a while.

And did you know that when I read your posts, there seems to be an aureole surrounding my computer screen?

Or it feels that way . . .

Have a great weekend and talk to you in December!

Alex

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