The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Taylor, Randy Danielson, TAFrazer, PNCC Random Guy, Coldstream
5,769 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (theophan), 69 guests, and 31 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,056
Posts414,078
Members5,769
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 19
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 19
Please forgive. I had no intention of starting something unkind by posting on the reservation of the Holy Gifts.

I am sorry if I seemed to point a finger at anyone regarding a description that was used regarding the reserved Holy Gifts.

“Some have likened the reserved particles as like “croutons.” Once they are immersed in the Chalice they are not like “croutons” but like the Holy Eucharist we would receive at any Liturgy.”

I especially apologize to Father. I did not intend to even appear to make judgment of Father’s post. I am certainly in no position to be negative about Father or anyone for that matter.

I intended only to mention one way that the Holy Eucharist can be prepared for reservation.

“May our partaking of these Holy Mysteries be not for our judgment or condemnation but for the healing of our souls and bodies.”

God forbid that we should argue about the Gifts that we have been given to unite us in the Holy Spirit.

Again, sorry to all for the upset.

Pray for me, a sinner!

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,517
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,517
My thanks (as so often is the case) to the Administrator for his excellent intervention. One might further suggest that reverence in our speech (and therefore in our writing) concerning the Holy Mysteries is always appropriate; such reverence is an important expression of our Faith and is a witness to that Faith.

Incognitus

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 69
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 69
To quote Alexander Schmemenn's writing on "Theology and Eucharist" he wrote:
"The actual state of Orthodox theology must be characterized by two words: confusion and awakening. By confusion, I mean an obvious lack of unity among Orthodox theologians: unity of theological language, unity of method, consensus as to the nature of questions and the mode of their solution. Our theology develops in a plurality of theological "keys" and within several mutually exclusive intellectual frameworks. This confusion, however, is also the sign of an awakening, of a new search for a genuinely Orthodox theological perspective."
Go to schmemann.org to read more.
These are his words not mine.

It's a sad day when administrators/moderators sanction or condone personal and vindictive attacks of priests on this forum. I shall no longer be a part of it.
I wish to be removed as a member.
May God bless you all!
Goodbye


Fr.Michael
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Administrator
Member
Offline
Administrator
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
I repeat my earlier post. It has nothing to do with Alexander Schmemenn's words, Father Michael. I has to do with your irreverence towards the elements of the Eucharist. That you seem to bypass in your laments and turning tail and running.

Can it be that there is no defense, so the obvious defense is a strategic retreat? It seems that you also have a chip on your shoulder concerning this forum and that maybe when you pronounce something it should be accepted without any question. This is not the way it works.

May I be the first to wish you a fond farewell.

Father Anthony+


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
A
AMM Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
Here is the full text. Theology and the Eucharist .

What I believe Fr. Schmemann is saying is that Orthodox theology (at least at the time he wrote the piece) in general was in a mixed state. He lists several factors - the lifting of Ottoman domination, the "western captivity", the encounter with modernism and so on. His opinions are certainly still controversial within the church especially among traditionalists.

That aside, I don't think what he is talking about is specifically how are the gifts to be venerated; but essentially what is the Eucharist itself, is it just one of seven sacraments? How does the church identify itself? He answers that by saying

by and in the Eucharist, understood and lived as the Sacrament of the Church, as the act, which ever makes the Church to be what she is — the People of God, the Temple of the Holy Spirit, the Body of Christ, the gift and manifestation of the new life of the new age. It is here and only here, in the unique center of all Christian life and experience that theology can find again its fountain of youth, be regenerated as a living testimony to the living Church, her faith, love and hope.

I think what Father was saying was that the church should refocus and view the Eucharist as the primary eschatological contact point between man and God. It isn’t just another event. When you read some of his other writings in some cases he called for the ending of what might be termed hyper-veneration in such things as infrequent communion.

I like this essay, and far from belaying a state of confusion, I think Fr. Schmemann gives us a clear picture of the Eucharist and why it is so central to our lives. That is something I think that can lead us all to the deepest veneration of what is before us.

Perhaps I'm just rambling, and I say this all as a catechumen who has never communed. I have felt the power though in witnessing the consecration of the gifts and the prostration of oneself before them in the season of penitence.

Andrew

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,642
Likes: 7
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,642
Likes: 7
Quote
Father Michael wrote:
To quote Alexander Schmemenn's writing on "Theology and Eucharist" he wrote:
"The actual state of Orthodox theology must be characterized by two words: confusion and awakening. By confusion, I mean an obvious lack of unity among Orthodox theologians: unity of theological language, unity of method, consensus as to the nature of questions and the mode of their solution. Our theology develops in a plurality of theological "keys" and within several mutually exclusive intellectual frameworks. This confusion, however, is also the sign of an awakening, of a new search for a genuinely Orthodox theological perspective."
Go to schmemann.org to read more.
These are his words not mine.
And you have used them out of context (to imply a lack of reverence by the Orthodox towards the Eucharist), which is wrong. I do not understand your hatred for the Orthodox. It is certainly not something you have learned from the teachings or example of the recent popes, most particularly Pope John Paul the Great.

Quote
Father Michael wrote:
It's a sad day when administrators/moderators sanction or condone personal and vindictive attacks of priests on this forum. I shall no longer be a part of it.
I wish to be removed as a member.
May God bless you all!
Goodbye
It is fairly common for those who have made a mistake and who refuse to admit their error to retreat while complaining that those who disagree with them are guilty of attacking them personally. Father Michael’s accusation is false.

As Father Michael takes his leave from the Forum I offer him my prayers and wish him God’s blessings in all things.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Dear Administrator,

Yes, I myself have difficulty understanding such attitudes! smile smile smile

(Thank you, by the way, for sticking up for me with "stlouisix" smile )

Alex

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Goodbye again, Father Michael!

Gaudior, Proud Member of the New Byzantine Inquisition!

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 231
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 231
Quote
Originally posted by Father Anthony:
I has to do with your irreverence towards the elements of the Eucharist.


In the Eucharist the Body of Christ has the apperance of bread, yes?

When dried to be reserved for the communion of the sick and the liturgy of the presanctified gifts, the Body of Christ has the apperance of dried bread.

Crutons are pieces of dried bread,

Where is the irreverence???

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 780
F
Administrator
Member
Offline
Administrator
Member
F
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 780
Okay boys and girls, let's all take a deep breath... Okay, take another one... One more... Good. Now let it go! Words were used that caused hurt feelings. It happens. Fr. Michael is, apparently, taking a sabbatical.

We, Catholic and Orthodox, both know how precious the Eucharist is. Let us always be careful in how we describe and approach it. This most wonderful, mysterious gift that God gives us of Himself cannot be taken lightly.

At the same time, we need to recognize that we are all sinners, that we are human and prone to fail in our approach to other, to ourselves, and in how we speak and write.

May our God who is beyond all understanding and yet gives Himself to us as Bread and Wine also give us the grace to be more like Him whom we eat!

Fr. Deacon Edward,
Moderator

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,949
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,949
I am in total agreement with Father Deacon Ed.

I think that alot that was written here by some posters to each other was unflattering in tone for Christians.

Whether we like each other or not, or agree with each other or not, if we are to consider ourselves followers of Christ, who preached that we should even love our enemies, we should be, at the very least, respectful of each other.

If we don't, we have little more to boast of and to light the world with than an atheist or agnostic does.

Let's practice what we preach, and let's resume loving and asking forgiveness from one another. The written word in this particular form of communication can often be misunderstood or misconstrued.

I hope that those who have hurt feelings will find it in their hearts to forgive, and that those who have hurt, will find it in their hearts to humble themselves to make peace in the name of our Lord who is the Prince of Peace.

Humbly,
In Christ,
Alice, Moderator and sinner

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,517
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,517
Unfortunately this will be a long post. Those who are not particularly interested in the question need not read it; I shall not be offended!

The recent discussion of the preparation, reservation, and veneration of the Holy Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ may mean that some of our readers will wish to know the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church on this topic. In Church-Slavonic and in those modern Slav languages used for divine services (such as Ukrainian and Belarusian) a complete edition of the priest’s service-book normally includes a section called the Учителное Известие, for the instruction of the Reverend Clergy on several such matters. In 1999, Holy Trinity Monastery at Jordanville published an English translation of this text with the blessing of Archbishop [now Metropolitan] Laurus. This English translation is bound together with an English translation of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom but the text of the instructive material is titled Instructional Information, is separately paginated (there are 107 pages of this text) and follows the Divine Liturgy itself – the edition is hard-bound, pocket-sized and printed in black and red; the book itself is nice.

But to the material in question


Page 74 directs “How to Reserve the Divine Mysteries for the Sick”, as follows:

“First of all, the parish priest [or a priest in a monastery] must take care that the vessels, that is, the chalice, diskos, asterisk, spoon and tabernacle be gold or silver or, in case of poverty, pewter, beautifully made for serving and for the reservation of the divine and life-giving Body of Jesus Christ, for in them is accomplished the awesome Mystery and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself manifestly abides in them.
. . .
page 75 “Let the tabernacle in which the Holy Mysteries must be reserved, that is, the Body of Christ, be covered by a cross on top and let it always stand with the Divine Mysteries on the Holy Table and not any other place.

“Never let an unconsecrated hand touch it under mortal sin and a great epitimia, except in the greatest need.

“The Holy Mysteries may be consecrated, dried and reserved not only on Great Thursday but, for a great need, on other days as well, according to the order written for Great Thursday.

. . .

page 78 “If, O priest, you must prepare the Holy Mysteries for special needs on Great Thursday or at another time, then take out another Lamb and do according to the order as in the Great Fast for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts; moisten the holy Lamb with the life-giving Blood, holding it a bit over the chalice, with great care and caution, in order not to over-wet it, so that it not drip there because of superfluity. One must dry the moistened holy Lamb on the Holy Table thus: first, spread out the antimension, and having removed the Lamb from the Tabernacle, put it on a diskos, cense around it, and then, making the proper reverence, cut it up with the holy spear into little particles with all reverence.

Page 79 “After cutting it up, place a flat rock or brick on the side of the antimension at your right hand and on the rock place a new cup or a clean iron or copper pot with burning coals and, making the proper reverence, and with great attention, take the holy diskos with the cut-up Divine Mysteries, place it above the cup and attentively watch so that the Divine Mysteries dry out a little, mixing them with the holy spear so that they not burn. When the holy diskos is well warmed, take it away and place it on the holy antimension or on the veil so that they not become too hot and the Holy Mysteries be burned. When it cools down a bit, again place it above the cup or other vessel set aside for this. Do this many times until They dry out. Put the dried particles with all heedfulness into the holy tabernacle, and, covering them, put them in their place, and making the proper reverence, fold up the antimension again.

Page 80: “But where the Divine Liturgy is served every day, as happens in great cities or in monasteries, then even without drying the Holy Mysteries they might be preserved in this manner: two Lambs are offered, but having taken part of one of them and moistened it with the Divine Blood as was said, keep it until morning for every serious case. Doing this daily we shall not need to dry them and we avoid all unfortunate accidents.”

Page 83: “At the beginning of the Holy Liturgy let all gather in the church. During the celebration of the Holy Liturgy let them, listening to it, stand and pray with fear and reverence. Let everyone who approaches Holy Communion, having bowed down once to the ground to Christ, Who is truly manifest in the Mysteries under the appearances of bread and wine, [p. 84] approach truly modestly, in deep humility, having placed his hands on his breast in the form of a cross, and let him receive Communion with faith and love for Christ crucified. Having received the Divine Mysteries, let him consume them in a dignified manner, and when the priest wipes his lips with the veil, let him kiss the edge of the holy chalice as if it were the very side of Christ from which came out blood and water. Afterwards the communicants, having stepped aside a bit, bow, but not to the earth, in order that they may preserve the Mysteries which they have received, and let them stand in their places, not speaking to one another . . . let them not go out of the church until the ending of the Holy Liturgy, and let them listen to the Thanksgiving Prayers after Holy Communion.”

Page 87: “The priest must strictly teach those who serve in the altar, i.e. the acolytes, that they must enter into the holy altar of God with great fear and trembling and all piety, and doing there their appointed [tasks], let them always remember that on the Holy Table dwells Christ our God. Therefore, when entering into the altar and exiting from it, let them bow deeply.

Page 88: “Never let them dare to touch the divine Holy Table, and, even more, the Divine Mysteries themselves which are on it, as well as any sacred vessel and other holy things, in order not to fall into great sins. They may take into their hands only candle-sticks, candles, censers and other minor holy things.

“Out of respect for the Divine Mysteries let none of the unordained enter into the altar, and women never.

“Acolytes who often confess and receive the Divine Mysteries must abide temperately and piously in virtue.

“These acolytes must bring into the altar prosphora, water, and incense, and must light and extinguish the candles, prepare and give to the priests the censer and zeon, carefully and often sweep and clean the whole altar and floor from every uncleanness, and the walls and ceiling from dust and spider webs.

“Only the priest or deacon or subdeacon may clean and wipe the Holy Table and the Table of Oblation; to them it belongs to take care that there be no dust there or any impurity; let no unordained sinful hand touch the sacred articles.

. . .

“For the same reason, not only the priest, and the celebrants in the altar, but all pious Christians, if they be in church, seeing the Divine Mysteries being carried to the sick, should honour Them with reverent prostrations.”


There is more which could be quoted, but I trust this makes the matter sufficiently clear and will dispel any thought or question as to the veneration and worship which Eastern Orthodoxy pays to the Divine Mysteries.

One or two points should perhaps be explained further: it was a universal custom of the Church to reserve the Divine Mysteries on Holy Thursday. This is the origin of the procession found in the Western Mass for that day, taking the Divine Mysteries from the high altar to the place of reservation (which has come to be called the “altar of repose”).

The prescription that the tabernacle must be on the Holy Table is a side-swipe at the Old Rite, which knows the practice of reserving the Divine Mysteries in the “Zion”, a tabernacle recessed high up into the Eastern wall of the apse – sufficiently high up so that the bishop does not turn his back on the Divine Mysteries when he is seated for the Epistle. [The term “Zion” can also be used for a vessel in which the deacon carries the Divine Mysteries, but this has become very rare.] In older Byzantine usage, there can also be a tabernacle on the Table of Preparation, especially for the Divine Mysteries kept for the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts, and this possibility is provided for in the Ordo Celebrationis and some editions of the service-book. [For example, see The Priest’s Service Book, Orthodox Church in America 2003, translated by Archbishop Dmitri, pp. 239-240.]

Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Dear Incognitus,

Perhaps this is part of the larger work that you quote from or perhaps this belongs to where I first read it - the instructions by St Peter Mohyla.

It was he who actually mentions Eucharistic miracles and how Orthodox priests are to respond to them . . .

He says, and I know this from memory, that following the Consecration, "should the Body of the Lord take on the true appearance of Flesh (or of a small Child) and the Blood of the Lord take on the appearance of true Blood," then, as he goes on to say, "O priest know that this is not Holy Communion, but a miracle of the Lord by which Divine Anger is expressed, perhaps by the lack of faith or fervour by someone in the Church" etc.

The priest is then instructed to cover the miracle up and leave it, all the while checking at different points during the Liturgy to see if the miracle had ceased.

If not, then the priest is admonished that he cannot possibly give this miracle as Communion - for indeed it is not.

He is to then take other bread and wine etc.

In the year 800 A.D., a priest of the Basilian tradition in Lanciano Italy was serving the Divine Liturgy and then, during the consecration, had a doubt as to whether a true transmutation occurs . . .

At that point, the Bread turned into real Flesh and the Wine into real Blood.

The miracle has continued to this day and can be seen, as it was seen, by my cousin, some years back.

And the rule of prayer for the preparation for Holy Communion in the Eastern Orthodox tradition is so intense and so very beautiful - can any other tradition compare to it?

To demean the Orthodox tradition with respect to its Eucharistic devotion is to truly exemplify a deep ignorance of what is, in fact, very beautiful and compelling!

Alex

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 93
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 93
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
And the rule of prayer for the preparation for Holy Communion in the Eastern Orthodox tradition is so intense and so very beautiful - can any other tradition compare to it?
Alex,

How do the Eastern Catholic preperatory prayers compare to the Eastern Orthodox? Aren't they similar?

In Christ,
Aaron

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Dear Aaron,

Excellent point!

In fact, EC's can and should prepare for Holy Communion EXACTLY the same traditional way as the Orthodox do.

However, in the UGCC parishes up here, we don't really teach our parishioners about this, although there are parishes where strict observance is made.

Others say, "This is how it used to be done, this is what needs to be done as an absolute minimum etc."

As "Orthodox in communion with Rome," we should be as Orthodox in our religious practice as our Orthodox brothers and sisters are (unless they belong to a more liberal jurisdiction wink ).

In fact, the whole realm of fasting rules and the like belong to the jurisdiction of the Particular Churches as well - the Patriarchs are the ones who legislate these things for their churches, not Rome.

Alex

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5