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Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65716
03/30/03 07:18 PM
03/30/03 07:18 PM
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I was born during Vatican II meself - feast of the Transfiguration, Aug 6, 1963. But then again, I was born a cradle Byzantine, so this counts me out.

BTW, someone should tell Johan that our liturgies only began to improve AFTER Vatican II.

There is no such thing as a N. O. Byzantine Liturgy or the like. There is either the Byzantine Liturgy or not. Then there is also the Chrysostom and Basil versions of that Liturgy. Then there are those versions that are followed during Lent or after Pascha or none of the above. Then there are those that follow the Typicon and thos that do not. We should also include those that include everything but the kitchen sink in its celebration and those that celebrate an abbreviated kind. Then we should not forget the hierarchical liturgy, which includes the bishop and the many other changes that reflect older versions. In all of this, Vatican II is hitherto unknown.

BTW, many do not use the Vatican II Council as the milestone in commenting on the liturgy. Usually, one considers whether a Byzantine Liturgy is Latinized (or Elko-ized) or not.

Can the VCII milestone be used for Matins, Pre-Sanctified, and Vespers? Most of our churches didn't even celebrate such services at the time of VCII. So, I guess we cannot use the N. O. Mass title to refer to them. Why is the title Novus Ordo title being used at all? Can a Byzantine liturgy that comes close to the specifications of the Ordo Celebrationis be considered post-Vatican II anyway? The Ordo Celebrationis was published in 1942, ten years BEFORE the Vatican II Council. So, if our liturgies begin to reflect a pre-Vatican II era, how can a post-Vaticn II litmus test be applied?

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65717
03/30/03 07:26 PM
03/30/03 07:26 PM
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Johan S. Offline OP
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Moe,

I have not stated anything "Traditional" but have stated Catholic topics. There is no gray area.

My beef is with those individuals who think they know more than Holy Mother Church. Specifically, Bishops, Priest, and Laity who break Liturgical Laws and teach theology that is foreign to the Catholic Church. I do not apologize for anything I have posted because I believe it to be Catholic, as I know it.

If however, I have offended you or anyone on this forum I am sorry. But, it appears that I have been attacked on this forum for standing up for the faith and not watering down the faith to appease those individuals who live outside the faith.

It saddens me that "Young" people who are attracted to a traditional liturgy whether it be East or West would offend anyone. We should rather rejoice if "Young" people are drawn to the rich Liturgical life that traditional liturgies provide.

So what does Homosexuality have to do with this you ask? Homosexuality is just one form of deviance that has drawn certain people together to attack Holy Mother Church. There are others such as modernism, masonry, communism, etc… These heresies/deviance should be exposed for what they are, sinful attacks against the Church. Satan moves in many ways we should be watchful and prayerful that we are put to the test. Dignity USA is one of these organizations that we should become aware of. Unfortunately, many of our faithful clergy have fallen away into this evil organization and have adopted their Satanic practices into their own churches. We should be mindful of the enemy and support our priest not to fall away from the graces of God. This also includes us.

J Thur,

What are you talking about? Have you read any my other post?

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65718
03/30/03 07:34 PM
03/30/03 07:34 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Johan S.:
There is evidence to suggest that the Gay/Lesbian community supports none conventional liturgies. We can see evidence of this in organizations like Dignity. Many people suspect that Liturgical abuses (i.e. not following the Latin Churches GRIM) are encouraged by the Gay/Lesbian community. However, this is NOT to suggest that the Gay/Lesbian community is influencing those Churches that do break Liturgical laws. It is just an assumption that some people make.

Here is an example of what I mean: http://www.dignityusa.org/liturgy/index.html

Dignity gives alternative Eucharist bread recipes and encourages the theology that "we are the Eucharist." With that in mind it does not bother me when certain individuals attack me.
Johan,

I am not aware of "alternative Eucharist bread recipes" in the Byzantine Church, Catholic or Orthodox.

Many of those who are attracted to, love, and are committed to the Byzantine liturgy are not gay or are members of Dignit.

Many of the liturgical abuses (Latinizations) in our Church were a result of poor understanding and appreciation of one's own traditions. This is a long and sore story in the chapter of our church. Never was an issue of being gay. Just the second-class Catholicism being made manifest.

You seem to have a rough time with the Latin Church and its new version of liturgy. How can we Byzantine Catholics on this Byzantine Catholic forum help you?

Never assume.

It is an understanding in the doctrine of Theosis that we DO become Eucharist, we DO participate in the divine nature, hence the word "communion" in refering to the Eucharist. We 'communicate' and become 'in communion' with Him as a 'community.'

Whether one likes lace or silk shouldn't be a factor in determining the gay-factor in taste. Potato bags need not apply. biggrin

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65719
03/30/03 07:40 PM
03/30/03 07:40 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Johan S.:
J Thur,

What are you talking about? Have you read any my other post?
Johan,

First, God loves you.

Second, I did participate in your thread, but later purged all my responses since you wrote off those who didn't just simply agree with your beef. You seem to have a big cankersore about Vatican II Council and the Traditional Latin Mass thingy. What does this have to do with us?

Joe Thur
A non-pre Vatican II, non-post Vatican II Byzantine Catholic, who can't understand those who use such milestones when discussing issues about other churches

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65720
03/30/03 07:49 PM
03/30/03 07:49 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Johan S.:
Dignity gives alternative Eucharist bread recipes and encourages the theology that "we are the Eucharist." With that in mind it does not bother me when certain individuals attack me.
So if someone disagrees with you, they are either homosexuals or "Dignity" sympathizers.

Are you sure you're a born Byzantine Catholic? Most of us don't get so uptight about something that has so little to do with us.

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65721
03/30/03 07:57 PM
03/30/03 07:57 PM
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Johan S. Offline OP
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J Thur,

I will spell it out for you! According to Colleen Carroll’s book there is a movement of young people who are attracted to Traditional Liturgies. Whether those Liturgies are East or West. Just for fun I thought I would see how many "Young" people on this forum were attractive to the Byzantine liturgy (since it is “Traditional”). This poll is not meant to prove anything. Vatican II was a good gauge since those who grow (Latin Catholics) up after Vatican II probably have not experienced a traditional liturgy (Tridentine Mass). If you take the poll or this thread any further than the explanation above then you have digressed into something that I had not intended.

So far, we have 14 Post-Vatican II people and two have identified that they are for a Traditional Liturgy. This thread has NOTHING to do with the Latin Mass or Vatican II. For your information I am a Byzantine Catholic from birth. Like I stated earlier I could care less how the current Latin liturgy is practiced.

I hope we can end the bashing.

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65722
03/30/03 08:04 PM
03/30/03 08:04 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Johan S.:
I hope we can end the bashing.
I think that bashing will end when you cease from using titles like "Eastern Novus Ordo." Not only do you apply a term, Novus Ordo, to a church not celebrating the New Mass, but your application of it to the Eastern Church is suspect, if not agenda-driven.

Who is Colleen Carroll?

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65723
03/30/03 08:15 PM
03/30/03 08:15 PM
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Posts: 219
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Johan S. Offline OP
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J Thur,

The truth has come out, you have not read any of my post. First I never said, "Eastern Novus Ordo" that title was given to us by Robert Horvath who started the thread. Second under his thread I clearly explained who Colleen Carroll was. Before you are critical I would suggest you read everything that has been posted. I am sure once you read the post you will find that we are probably not in disagreement.

Peace

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65724
03/30/03 08:15 PM
03/30/03 08:15 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Johan S.:
So what does Homosexuality have to do with this you ask? Homosexuality is just one form of deviance that has drawn certain people together to attack Holy Mother Church. There are others such as modernism, masonry, communism, etc… These heresies/deviance should be exposed for what they are, sinful attacks against the Church. Satan moves in many ways we should be watchful and prayerful that we are put to the test.
Johan,

Can "Traditional-ISM" (not to be confused with orthodoxy) be considered another one of those heresies or deviances?

One is either orthodox or not. Traditional-ISM is a fuzzy term used in contemporary polemics ... err, discussions. It has polemic useage like "Conservative" and "Liberal."

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65725
03/30/03 08:18 PM
03/30/03 08:18 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Lemko Rusyn:
Are you sure you're a born Byzantine Catholic? Most of us don't get so uptight about something that has so little to do with us.
Lemko asks a good question. I don't hear many Byzantine Catholics using 'Eastern Novus Ordo' or 'Post-Vatican II' as terms, unless they were former Latins coming to our churches with a beef for their former church.

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65726
03/30/03 08:30 PM
03/30/03 08:30 PM
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Johan S. Offline OP
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J Thur,

I have never said "Eastern Novus Ordo" as far as Post-Vatican II would you perfer me say Generation X? Further, I am not going to entertain your comments anymore. What I was trying to point out from the previous thread is that there are many young people who are finding facing East a rich liturgical experience. What point you are trying to make I have no idea. Again, I suggest you read the previous thread.

Peace

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65727
03/30/03 09:11 PM
03/30/03 09:11 PM
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Quote
Who is Colleen Carroll?
She is the authoress of a recent book that has received mixed reviews. It claims young people are seeking out "traditional religion". Her critics have pointed out the limitations of her lumping together practices such as Fundementalist Protestantism and Tridentine Catholicism as part of a single movement. Suggesting that the Tridentine Mass and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom are interchangable in the same way might evoke the same criticism.

The other criticism of her work that her interviewees were almost exclusively non-Hispanic white and college educated. That would be a minority of the US Catholic community.
Axios

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65728
03/30/03 10:36 PM
03/30/03 10:36 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Johan S.:
J Thur,

I have never said "Eastern Novus Ordo" as far as Post-Vatican II would you perfer me say Generation X?
Johan,

I apologize about the "Eastern Novus Ordo" term. You did make to do about "post-Vatican II" and all. Actually, all this traditional-ISM is one aspect of the sickness of religion.

Who cares?

When the Gospel message gets lost in the arguments about pre-this and post-that or Novus-this or Novus-that, it becomes the same cr*p as being referenced in Isaiah 1:10-17.

Those who use either/or end up blending together as one depressed voice longing for the days when ... After awhile, the bleeding hearts for Tridentine this and Pre-Vat that and those who attempt to force such constructs onto Eastern Christians definitely have a problem. Personally, we have our own problems.

Where is the Gospel message? If religion is a pursuit of ritual and rubric, conservative this and traditionalist that, then you can have it. And all this talk about post-Vatican II as if this place is the place to use such false divisions of history. So what? What's the big point? We stil can't fully implement the 1942 Ordo from Rome. Vatican II and the Liturgical Instructions still falls on deaf ears.

Since Vatican II the Byzantine Catholic churches have lost 50% of their members and are currently contemplating closing more church doors. We are now in a crisis mode. Will worrying about the arrangement of the deck furniture of the Titanic help us now? Will applying key terms and loaded phrases borrowed from other church wranglings prove to be fruitful for us?

Who cares?

We gotta do more. Talk about ritual doesn't excite people as much. You forgot about the community aspect. If a new family attends a parish for weeks and is never greeted by a parishioner, then its asta la vista, baby. No matter how much of a museum the temple looks like.

Taken as an aggregate, we are a dying church. Read me? A dying church.

I still don't get your "post-Vatican II" term. What does this mean? Who cares? How does it help us? Vatican II only affirmed what we should have been doing all along.

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65729
03/30/03 10:53 PM
03/30/03 10:53 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Axios:
She is the authoress of a recent book that has received mixed reviews. It claims young people are seeking out "traditional religion". Her critics have pointed out the limitations of her lumping together practices such as Fundementalist Protestantism and Tridentine Catholicism as part of a single movement.
Axios,

Thank you. I remember that name and Tom Beaudoin. I think you hit the key term: FUNDAMENTALISM. People like an easy religion that offers constraints and limits (me and my religion in a box with a handle on it), which makes closure and certainty that more likely. One of the hallmarks of fundamentalism is its 'reactionary' character and its ability to politicize religion, hence terms like "conservative," "liberal," "traditionalist/ism," etc. Whatever happened to that good ol' "orthodox-heterodox" spectrum? Fundamentalism's other characteristic is being non-scholarly. Scholarship and reflection over periods of time longer or older than one's own lifespan can conflict and become a problem to one's own politicized construct of church and the issue of change, organic development, and theological/liturgical pruning.

But, then again, God doesn't live in a box.

Re: Born Post-Vatican II ? #65730
03/30/03 11:22 PM
03/30/03 11:22 PM
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J Thur,

The reason why 50% of our church is gone after Vatican II has more to do with economics than the faith. Simply put the jobs left Penn. area and moved elsewhere. The church has tried to move with the people but the number of vocations have limited that move. It would be an interesting study to see where are the ethnic Byzantines in the USA who are no longer part of their ethnic church.

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