The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
silk, Latin Orthodox, SheilaFK, DominicanByzCath83, GKChesternut
5551 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (RyanOwens, 1 invisible), 72 guests, and 385 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Portable Icon Screen
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,589
Posts410,984
Members5,551
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6865
08/14/02 12:03 PM
08/14/02 12:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline OP
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Dear Friends,

Here is a new icon of Fr. Judge:

http://www.bridgebuilding.com/narr/rlmyj.html

God bless,

Alex

Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6866
08/14/02 01:37 PM
08/14/02 01:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,042
Washington, DC
DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic Offline
novice O.Carm.
DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic  Offline
novice O.Carm.
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,042
Washington, DC
Alex,

I am troubled by the bridgebuilding site.

I thought that only saints were to be depicted in icons, that those who are yet to be sainted should not appear in icons.

As for Fr Judge, I have heard some disturbing things about him and his past. Not that there aren't disturbing things in the past of some of the saints, but he is not yet one.

As for the site you listed, they also have icons no non-catholic/non-orthodox christians, Martin Luther King, Jr., icons of non-christians, Mohandas Gandhi.

And what is with the icon of Albert Einstein?


David

[ 08-14-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6867
08/14/02 01:46 PM
08/14/02 01:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline OP
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Dear David,

Privately, we may have pictures/icons of anyone who inspires us or who witnesses Jesus for us.

This is allowed in East and West.

I once wrote to Orthodox theologian John Meyendorff on the score about venerating non-Catholic and non-Orthodox holy people.

He wrote back to me to say that privately honouring or even invoking those who were not formally Orthodox (his words) is not condemned by the Church.

I have pictures of my relatives who have died that hang in a part of my icon corner and on whose constant intercession I rely. If I knew how to do haloes, I'd write icons of them with such.

This was, by the way, one of the precipitating factors that led to the iconoclastic heresy that being that people would bring their home icons of their relatives, whom they were entitled to venerate in their home churches, to hang on iconostases in the churches!

I wouldn't accept all the icons depicted on Lentz's site. But I would most of them.

Those that are not yet canonized are left to our private devotion and inclination with respect to who we like or don't care much for.

I, for one, have no problem accepting Martin Luther King, Jr. as a martyr.

The Church's calendar has saints who were not orthodox in their theology and yet who died as martyrs for Christ and for that reason earned a place in the calendar.

If it was so for the early Church, why isn't it so for the contemporary Church?

But I leave that in the hands of the competent authorities and of yours!

Not everyone will rush to get the icon of Fr. Judge either.

But I know some non-Catholics who are especially inspired by him. I'm sure there are thousands.

Alex

Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6868
08/14/02 02:05 PM
08/14/02 02:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,042
Washington, DC
DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic Offline
novice O.Carm.
DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic  Offline
novice O.Carm.
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,042
Washington, DC
Alex,
I replied to you via private email as I do not wish to start another war here at the forum.

But.... You did bring up the issue of private veneration, which I am aware is ok and a good thing.

But.... Isn't the public promotion of private veneration of an individual a no-no?


David

Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6869
08/14/02 02:10 PM
08/14/02 02:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline OP
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Dear David,

Not that I'm aware of, Big Guy!

What about all those millions of people who privately venerate Padre Pio even before his canonization and promoted his private veneration before this received the liturgical go-ahead?

I can tell you about the efficaciousness of any private individual who has died and recommend you invoke him.

Mother Teresa is a good example, would you not agree?

Alex

Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6870
08/14/02 02:23 PM
08/14/02 02:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,562
Glasgow, Scotland
O
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member
Our Lady's slave  Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,562
Glasgow, Scotland
Quote
Originally posted by DavidB:
Alex,....As for Fr Judge, I have heard some disturbing things about him and his past. Not that there aren't disturbing things in the past of some of the saints, but he is not yet one....
David[ 08-14-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]


Mmmm,
I also have heard things about Fr Mychal, but at the same time whilst not condoning anything which may have been untoward in his private life [ and I have no proof of this you understand] the fact remains he acted as a shepherd looking after his flock and in doing so gave his life . Surely that action is worthy of a priest ?

Love the sinner not the sin - and there was an action that was full of love for his fellow humans - he gave his life helping others

Angela

Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6871
08/14/02 02:27 PM
08/14/02 02:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,196
Columbus, Ohio
Sharon Mech Offline
Member
Sharon Mech  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,196
Columbus, Ohio
Yes indeed,

And when I get $25 that doesn't have three other places to go, I plan to order one of their shirts, featuring an "icon" of Mary Harris Jones.


Sharon

Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6872
08/14/02 02:43 PM
08/14/02 02:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 838
Baltimore
Medved Offline
Member
Medved  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 838
Baltimore
GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIMFOREVER!

I like www.trinitystores.com

The have many thing by some different ikonographers. There's a set of note cards featuring the Women of the New Testament. They are so NON-Hollywood looking! I love them!

I also love the ikon of St. Juan Diego!

mark


the ikon writer
Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6873
08/14/02 02:49 PM
08/14/02 02:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline OP
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Dear Mark,

Yes, Merlin the Magician is definitely someone I would have to think about before including his icon in my corner smile .

Perhaps the Druidic Society to which the new Archbishop of Canterbury belongs might be interested, eh?

Alex

Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6874
08/14/02 03:14 PM
08/14/02 03:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 838
Baltimore
Medved Offline
Member
Medved  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 838
Baltimore
SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!
SLAVA NA VIKI BOHU!

Hi Alex!

Actually, the Lord of the Dance was one of my favs. It's because of all the symbols present. They are the same symbols that are in my rushnyky that decorated my ikon corner and many of the ikons in my church; not to mention all the pysanky that I do....

mark


the ikon writer
Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6875
08/14/02 03:27 PM
08/14/02 03:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline OP
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Dear Mark,

Yep, a fav of mine too! (Do you see how "hip" I can be when I want to? smile ).

What is your overall assessment of Robert Lentz's iconographic style?

Alex

Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6876
08/14/02 03:40 PM
08/14/02 03:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 838
Baltimore
Medved Offline
Member
Medved  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 838
Baltimore
SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!
SLAVA NA VIKI BOHU!

Hi Alex...

I LOVE Robert Lentz' work! I wish I could study with him.

I don't always agree with all of his subjects, HOWEVER, many are very profound for me and I use them as devotional items. His Our Lady of Magadan is dedicated to all who died in exile in Siberia. It shows Mary cradling the body of Her Crucified Son.

I also like one called Our Lady of the Holocaust which depicts Mary holding the Child Jesus who is cradling a Torah scroll and wearing tallit. Mary has an arm band with JUDE written on it and the stars on Her forehead and shoulder are the Stars of David.

His Apache Christ and Cheyenne Madonna speak volumes to the 1st Nations (Native Americans) in this country. They kind of remind of the Hutzul Madonna that I see on Ukrainian Christmas cards.

I don't know what it is about Robert Lentz' work that attracts me. I think it might be his use of color and form. It's so bold yet simple. His work is not cluttered. For me, awe inspiring; they draw me in and beg me to pray with and before them.

mark


the ikon writer
Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6877
08/14/02 03:43 PM
08/14/02 03:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline OP
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Dear Marko,

Yes, Robert Lentz does make excellent use of powerful symbolism in his icons that seem to make them speak to people in a most relevant, contemporaneous way.

Icons, like the liturgy, draw people to Christ.

And I too have seen people drawn to his Christian celebration of their cultures and martyrs.

Alex

Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6878
08/14/02 05:05 PM
08/14/02 05:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,010
Hermitage, PA
C
Chtec Offline
Member
Chtec  Offline
Member
C
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,010
Hermitage, PA
I have mixed feelings about Bridge Building's and Robert Lentz's icons.

His style is impeccable. His sense of color and shading is just amazing. His blend of realistic features with Byzantine technique is quite impressive. However, I do have to echo those who question the subject matter.

My personal feelings about iconography are a bit more "liberal" compared to strict Orthodox practice. My father, an iconographer of almost 25 years, has done icons (mainly "post-Schism" [whatever that means] Roman saints and subjects) that some purists may deem unacceptable and uncanonical. These subjects don't usually bother me in the least. I also don't mind seeing icons of uncanonized individuals. However...

Many of Mr. Lentz's icons seem to be done to convey a political motive opposed to a spiritual one. Harvey Milk comes to mind. What is the criterion for having an icon done? That you're dead? That someone, somewhere, finds you inspiring?

Portraying such people with halos and an inscription "Saint <so and so>" in Greek doesn't seem right to me. If you want to make a portrait in an iconographic style, that's fine. Go to any ancient church covered in icons and you're bound to find a representation of the donor (maybe his/her family members too!). But as soon as you add the halo, you've turned a portrait into an icon.

I must say that I like the icon of Ghandi. Really, I do. But I still think it's wrong to show him with a halo and to say "Saint Mohandas." While we can respect him to the utmost, and even believe that he is with the Lord, he still was not even baptized and therefore out of our league.

Even while saying this, I still am not as bothered by these icons as I am by those that portray some strange theological/spiritual idea. The "family portrait" style icon of the Trinity ("the old man, the kid and the bird") is not correct. Showing three women, one giving birth to the planet earth, surrounded by a big snake and a bird and putting the title "Agia Trias" is very, VERY wrong, dare I say blasphemous. I don't like using that term often, but in cases like this, I think it applies. I would say the same for the "Lord of the Dance." I'm sorry, Medved, but showing a nekkid' Jesus with antlers and a drum is just weird, and unorthodox. If you want symbols from vyshivany and pysanky in an icon, work them into the clothing or something.

Portraying Christ and the Mother of God as different races is a toss up. I find it intriguing, yet I still have to rely on the fact that Christ came in time and history as a Jewish male (well, that disqualifies the Christ "Sophia" icon). Showing Jesus as an Apache is almost as bad as showing him with blonde hair and blue eyes! heh

Now, with all my complaining about Mr. Lentz's work, I also should say that I don't really like some "strange" icons that were done in the past in "Orthodox" countries. It seems that there was/is a whole mess of subjects done by Russian iconographers that are just downright wacky. I've seen a few by the renowned Vladislav Andrejev that make me wonder. confused

I'm sorry if I seem like a hard-nose on these points. I'm really a nice guy... honestly! wink

-Dave
an aspiring iconographer ,
totally unworthy of the talents which God has given

Re: Icon of Fr. Mychal Judge #6879
08/14/02 09:44 PM
08/14/02 09:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 788
western coast, eastern rite
Axios Offline
Member
Axios  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 788
western coast, eastern rite
I am putting in my order for an image of Holy Mychal.

Axios

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2018. All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1
(Release build 20180111)
Page Time: 0.020s Queries: 14 (0.007s) Memory: 2.0439 MB (Peak: 2.2621 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-10-18 20:16:42 UTC