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ROCOR Liturgy #69484 04/07/03 11:26 AM
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Jenny Offline OP
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I went to an ROCOR Divine Liturgy for the first time yesterday. It was a wonderful experience. The church is called St. Nicholas Orthodox Mission, and it is actually located in the priest's house. The first thing I noticed was that they used the liturgy of St. Basil the Great. In the Byzantine Catholic parish I've been going to we still use the liturgy of St. John Crystostom, even though it's Lent.

One thing that happened, which worried me on the way home: Father Damien said that only those who were Orthodox could approach the chalice (which I knew), and since I am not Orthodox, I did not approach. But they had a separate basket for their bread. I thought the bread was supposed to be dipped in the wine and taken from the spoon together. Here, everyone went up to the chalice and received the wine and then took a piece of bread afterward. Anyway, there was a really lovely older woman next to me who had talked to me quite a bit before Liturgy. When she went to get the bread, she brought me back a piece, too. I whispered, "Can I take this even though I'm not Orthodox?" And she told me I could...I just couldn't approach the chalice. So I ate the bread. Later, on the way home, I was worried I shouldn't have done that. I was afraid of offending this woman since she had obviously been doing this a long time, but I'm even more afraid of offending the Lord!

I wanted to stay afterward and speak with Father Damien about it, among other things, but some of the people continued with prayers with Father after the Liturgy was ended and I couldn't stay that long. I felt bad, being their guest, that I couldn't stay to talk, but I had to get home to my husband.

I would love to know why the wine was separate from the bread. And I'm really anxious to know if I did something bad by consuming the bread.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

God Bless,

Jenny

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69485 04/07/03 11:51 AM
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Our Lady's slave Offline
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Jenny - don't panic - you did , as far as I know, nothing wrong.

As a non Orthodox you may not Receive Communion [ from the Priest = approach the Chalice], and that you already knew smile

What you were given afterwards was , and I know I will be corrected if I am wrong wink , the Antidoron - bread which has been blessed but not Consecrated.

Trust them - you would not have been given anything you should not have been [ sorry about the mangled construction there]

As to the Chalice afterwards - could it just have been water ? This way by taking the blessed bread and some water - and I know I am not going to explain it well - had you been able to receive Communion this would have ensured that you would have consumed the Body and Blood of Christ and none would have remained in your mouth - It would have been totally Consumed.

As the the use of the Liturgy of St Basil - honestly I have no idea - it must have been one of the occasions when it's use is mandated.

Now you will get the real answers from someone else biggrin

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69486 04/07/03 12:13 PM
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Jenny Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:
Jenny - don't panic - you did , as far as I know, nothing wrong.

As a non Orthodox you may not Receive Communion [ from the Priest = approach the Chalice], and that you already knew smile

What you were given afterwards was , and I know I will be corrected if I am wrong wink , the Antidoron - bread which has been blessed but not Consecrated.

Trust them - you would not have been given anything you should not have been [ sorry about the mangled construction there]

As to the Chalice afterwards - could it just have been water ? This way by taking the blessed bread and some water - and I know I am not going to explain it well - had you been able to receive Communion this would have ensured that you would have consumed the Body and Blood of Christ and none would have remained in your mouth - It would have been totally Consumed.

As the the use of the Liturgy of St Basil - honestly I have no idea - it must have been one of the occasions when it's use is mandated.

Now you will get the real answers from someone else biggrin
Thanks for your response. I do hope it was bread that was just blessed, not consecrated. Those who went up to take communion took from the chalice first, then turned and took a piece of bread out of the basket. The woman who gave me the bread took bread for herself out of the same basket.

God Bless,

Jenny

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69487 04/07/03 12:22 PM
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Our Lady's slave Offline
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Jenny - it was - trust me smile

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69488 04/07/03 03:02 PM
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Reader Joseph Offline
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Dear Jenny,

For what it is worth, the typicon of the Btzantine Ruthenian Church for the Metropolia of Pittsburgh prescribes that the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil is to be celebrated on the first five Sundays of the Great Fast. On the sixth Sunday, Palm (Flowery) Sunday the Divine Liturgy of St. John Crystostom is to be celebrated.

Interestingly, wink looking ahead to this coming weekend, on Lazarus Saturday the fast is mitigated, and on Sunday, a feast of our Lord, there is no fast prescribed.

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69489 04/07/03 03:06 PM
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Dear Janka,

Yes, the blessed bread you took was just that - bread that was left over from the bread that was actually used for Holy Communion.

It is distributed to the faithful at the end of the Divine Liturgy, although there is also the practice of having communicants "wash down" Holy Communion with the blessed bread and water immediately following Communion.

It was fine for you to have partaken of that bread, although I know there are Orthodox who have told me I shouldn't have done so myself, not belonging to their jurisdiction - but the logic was lost on me.

The ROCOR is more strict than other Orthodox jurisdictions about non-Orthodox visitors among them, what they can or cannot do etc.

Personally, I think it is not helpful to the spiritual life of Catholics to attend Liturgies in Orthodox jurisdictions that are rather more markedly "anti-Uniate" and "anti-Roman."

There was one such parish where, once it was found out what Church I belonged to, I was simply asked to leave and come back when I decided to seek the truth in Orthodoxy . . .

The fact that many of us Orthodox Catholics in communion with Rome have a very ecumenicist view, as is often enunciated by the Administrator and others here, does not mean that it is shared by the ROCOR and other like-minded groups.

(Frankly, I thought the Administrator's blanket recommndation to you to go ahead and attend the Liturgy was bordering on the irresponsible - sorry, John, but since you're not pulling any punches today, I don't see why I should)

The ROCOR is quite serious about considering itself the true Church of Christ alone, no matter what world Orthodoxy thinks of it.

I attended an ROCOR with a friend who was a former employer. Although the ROCOR has many, many things to recommend it in terms of "purity of Orthodox practice," the point is that it was impossible to feel that one is not somehow "outside the Church" in such a parish. This is no slight on the ROCOR, for it truly does believe it is the Church of Christ and we can do nothing other than respect the traditional and strong commitment of its members.

I came to the point where I was going down the road to conversion to ROCOR and that is when I checked myself and stopped attending, even once in a while.

Unless, of course, one wanted to convert, but I didn't.

I also observed other Catholics who came into the parish - their experiences served no good spiritual purpose for them.

Ecumenical relations are based on a respect for one another without the implied idea that goes something like, "It's great that you're here, God is obviously calling you to the true Church . . ."

The OCA is the Orthodox Church of choice when it comes to extending a welcome to Catholics and Protestants and sharing with everyone the joy of their experience of Orthodox faith and practice.

Or so I see it . . .

Alex

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69490 04/07/03 03:07 PM
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Dmitri Rostovski Offline
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What you received was not consecrated only blessed. The True Body and Blood (both bread and wine) was in the Chalice being given to the Communicants. It is the custom in some churches to offer antidorion along with Holy Communion although I have not seen it widely practiced.

Dmitri

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69491 04/07/03 03:41 PM
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Robert Horvath Offline
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Slava Isusu Christu!

When I was Orthodox (OCA-Russian Diocese of Alaska), I have since returned to our Rusyn Catholic Church eek smile , Father would have Matushka place the leftover antidoron and blessed wine (Port) co-mingled with warm water on a side table, on the Theotokos side of the temple, for the Faithful and Visitors to receive after the Faithful Commune the Sacred Mysteries; After Communion people would come up reverence the festal Ikon, kiss the handcross Father would be holding, kiss his right hand and go to the antidoron table and help themselves. It was cool, you would see pious women picking the breadcrumbs off the floor and eating it so as to not have it profaned; mind you we had no pews wink

It is up to the priest (OCA, AA, GA) to allow non-Orthodox to receive the blessed bread and wine. In modern Orthodox Jurisdictions the general praxis is to allow non-Orthodox to receive the blessed bread (and wine: some don't take the wine) as a sign of charity. I was told by a ROCOR priest that it was verboten (forbidden) for non-Orthodox to receive them. My dear, in Orthodox Churches if you are new you must present yourself, out of courtesy, to the presbyter before Divine Liturgy so that he knows whether you are Orthodox or non-Orthodox; for Orthodox Father would inquire as to the state of their soul and their last Confession. The woman was wrong in giving you the antidoron. Next time you go tell the priest what happened, ask his forgiveness and blessing. When in Russia do as the Russians, When in the Carpathian Mountains.... when in Rome do as the.... wink

For Catholics of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia it is not our usage to have it taken every Sunday, but that is up to the priest. If our priests had a Pani to bake the bread I am sure we would take it more often biggrin

In Christ,


Robert

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69492 04/07/03 04:13 PM
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Diak Offline
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Jenny, the antidoron is given specifically to those who cannot receive Communion, and literally means "instead of the Gifts".

As you could not receive Communion, for obvious reasons, it is fine for you to take the Antidoron. I do not think the priest will mind, but it would not hurt to discuss this with him as some of the more traditionalist priests ask for fasting even before taking antidoron.

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69493 04/07/03 04:21 PM
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Robert, are you talking about mirovanije bread (which is for major feasts) or antidoron. I wasn't aware that there were Byzantine Catholic parishes (Rusyn or Ukrainian) that made use of antidoron. I could see th Melkites making use of it, but not other Byzantine Catholic jurisdictions, at least not in the U.S.

Ung-Certez

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69494 04/07/03 04:40 PM
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Diak:

I am afraid you are wrong. All Communicants in Orthodox Churches are to receive the blessed bread and wine if offered so that none of the Holy Gifts remain in the mouth so as to avoid profanation.

SCOBA Jurisdictions allow non-Orthodox to receive the leftover prosphora or antidoron, but each priest ultimately makes that call; some do not allow the non-Orthodox to receive. I know when I attended St. Herman's Antiochian Mission in Wasilla, Alaska, when I was Byzantine, Father Michael would not allow me to receive or any other non-Orthodox. He said, "I cannot allow non-Orthodox to receive the blessed bread and wine since I do not know the state of their soul; even in receiving the blessed bread and wine if one has grave sin on his soul it amounts to sacrilidge; and all of my people must confess regularly or I will not offer them the Eucharist, and I will charge the deacons to make sure they do not partake of the blessed bread and wine." He was a great cure of souls; I remember many of his wise sayings.

Since she received the prosphora illicitly, from the hands of probably a very well meaning woman and not with the permission of the ROCOR priest, she needs to go to the him, talk to him and get his forgiveness and blessing; it is only proper, believe me, when I was Orthodox I attended a ROCOR parish for over a year; they are VERY serious about these things. To the Orthodox traditionalist Faithful it would be a grave matter that a Byzantine Catholic received the leftover prosphora. Oh how grave it would be! eek So, it seems that it would be good for her soul to go talk to the presbyter of that parish about what happened. The priests are the guardians of the Holy Things, we cannot in a maverick fashion claim them for ourselves if they are not for us.

Voila.

In Christ,


Robert

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69495 04/07/03 04:51 PM
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Dear Robert,

You are quite right.

The blessed Bread was taken home by Christians after, in the early Church, it was forbidden for laity to take Holy Communion itself home for purposes of communing daily at morning prayers.

The Bread, while not Communion, is holy and therefore partaking of it is based on the same conditions by which people partake of Communion - oneness in faith and church communion.

This is very emphasized by ROCOR and this is why I think it is best for Eastern Catholics not to place themselves in a situation where they may give offense to ROCOR and other like-minded Orthodox faithful and/or be open to various degrees of proselytisation either.

That is why I think it is wrong to encourage Catholics to visit such Churches.

Alex

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69496 04/07/03 04:52 PM
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Robert Horvath Offline
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Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Ung Certez:

For us it would be mirovanije bread utilized festally. A Byzantine priest friend of mine says that Holy Resurrection Monastery offers the prosphora often after the Eucharist and some Byzantine parishes are experimenting with it.

But again yes, we take the mirovanije bread on great feasts (if the priest wants to do it).

In the Panagia:


Robert

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69497 04/07/03 05:13 PM
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In the OCA parishes I have attended, often the antidoron (blessed bread), together with some blessed wine combined with warm water, is offered either on a side table or a table in the rear of the church; communicants approach the chalice and receive the Eucharist (body and blood together on the spoon), and then the pious tradition is to partake of the antidoron and the blessed wine in order to cleanse one's mouth of the Eucharist. In most OCA parishes I have attended, I have personally seen parishioners offer the antidoron to guests that whom they see present who they notice did not approach the chalice ... as a sign of charity and love. AFAIK, there is nothing wrong with this practice, and Jenny did nothing wrong by accepting the antidoron and partaking of it.

In Greek parishes (and parishes of the -- more or less -- Greek use, such as the Antiochians), the antidoron is distributed by hand when the faithful approach at the end of the Divine Liturgy to venerate the cross and receive a blessing from the priest. I have never once seen any Greek Orthodox or Antiochian Orthodox priest ask a visitor presenting himself to venerate the cross at the end of liturgy as to the state of his soul or whether he was Orthodox before handing him a piece of antidoron.

Brendan

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69498 04/07/03 05:15 PM
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Robert Horvath Offline
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Slava Isusu Christu!

Oh, and Jenny always stay for trapeza (a kind of Russian Potluck, fundraiser) it is an insult to not attend.

See:http://www.roca.org/OA/163-164/163p.htm

The Russians take hospitality VERY seriously smile You are their guest, let them pamper you. I have many fond memories of trapeza when I attended ROCOR parish. Lots of Babushkas shoving food down your throat and you must try EVERYTHING! Trapeza is also a time for lectures and talks given by the priest; you generally make a small (or large wink ) donation. What a joy it was for me those days! But now I am back in the Most Holy Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of Pittsburg, sui juris, in Union with the Supreme Pontiff biggrin and I don't regret it a bit. Each cultural tradition offers something the others don't. One is not better than the others.

In Christ,


Robert

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