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Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69499 04/07/03 05:15 PM
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DTBrown Offline
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I visited Holy Resurrection Monastery for Sunday Liturgy a couple of weeks ago. They did serve the antidoron to all visitors at the end of Liturgy. It was not served during Communion time (which has been the usage in all Orthodox parishes I've visited). I enjoyed the Liturgy very much. It was very much like the OCA parish I used to attend here locally.

I've visited a few Ukrainian and Ruthenian Catholic parishes which distribute the blessed bread at the end of Liturgy. Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever seen the traditional use of the prosphora loaf in these parishes. Usually, the bread for the Lamb is pre-cut and the blessed bread that is distributed at the end of Liturgy is additional pre-cut pieces that were not consecrated. I hope someday our Churches will restore the traditional usage of prosphora in the Liturgy.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69500 04/07/03 05:32 PM
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Robert Horvath Offline
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My dear-in-Christ Brendan:

You must remember that these were convert Antiochians - all former evangelicals or charismatics; if you've studied the history of the Antiochian Church in America. Father Michael's Church in Wasilla, Alaska was the MOST wink Orthodox, in regard to praxis, than all of the Orthodox Churches in the Anchorage, Mat-Su area biggrin . I believe he is now Greek and is a Father Confessor for a Monastery in the lower 48. He is a holy man; quite in the Spirit of St. Herman.

And in all the Orthodox Churches I have attended ( about 30 from Greek to ROCOR excluding Old Calendar Greeks) most if not all the priests wanted to talk to new people before the Divine Liturgy to inquire about whether or not they were Orthodox; that is if they came before Father started the Introductory and Proskemedia prayers wink . It is not proper to receive the Eucharist and prosphora until one has introduced oneself to the Priest.

All of them asked me if I had been to confession and wanted to know the state of my soul before God. Guess I was Lucky, huh confused

At any rate it must be the Communist infiltrations or the effects of Freemasonry in the Modernist Jurisdictions that cause the priests to just let any old Joe go up for Communion and prosphora :rolleyes: hehe!

Oy Vey!

In Christ,


Robert

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69501 04/07/03 05:44 PM
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Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Dear Robert and Brendan,

Well, my former Antiochian Orthodox neighbour always brought me Antidoron from his Church.

And he is a Freemason - although I'm sure there is no causality here smile smile .

He asked me my Church affiliation and I simply told him I was "Orthodox in communion with Rome."

He had to think about that for a minute . . .

He later introduced me to his priest as "my Orthodox neighbour who belongs to another jurisdiction that is different from ours." wink

I really left the whole discussion alone when I tried to explain to him that I was with the Pope . . .

"Oh," he said, "I like him very much too!" wink

Alex

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69502 04/07/03 05:50 PM
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Robert Horvath Offline
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Dear DT Brown:

Some of our parishes have the faithful bake the Prosphora for the Divine Liturgy. It is true, for the sake of time or whatever, our priests may pre-cut bread and put it in the freezer for Liturgy the next day or for the whole week; but some will bake it early in the morning and maybe someday we will have Pani do it! biggrin

In Our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ!


Robert Horvath

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69503 04/07/03 08:18 PM
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Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Dear Robert,

Forgive me, but it has been a difficult day for me . . .

You mean, Brother, that those Byzantine parishes that use pre-cut prosphora are, when it comes to Eastern tradition, "half-baked?"

Have a good evening!

Alex

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69504 04/07/03 10:22 PM
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Jenny Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by Robert Horvath.:
Slava Isusu Christu!

Oh, and Jenny always stay for trapeza (a kind of Russian Potluck, fundraiser) it is an insult to not attend.

See:http://www.roca.org/OA/163-164/163p.htm

The Russians take hospitality VERY seriously smile You are their guest, let them pamper you. I have many fond memories of trapeza when I attended ROCOR parish. Lots of Babushkas shoving food down your throat and you must try EVERYTHING! Trapeza is also a time for lectures and talks given by the priest; you generally make a small (or large wink ) donation. What a joy it was for me those days! But now I am back in the Most Holy Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of Pittsburg, sui juris, in Union with the Supreme Pontiff biggrin and I don't regret it a bit. Each cultural tradition offers something the others don't. One is not better than the others.

In Christ,


Robert
Oh, I feel really terrible now! frown I really didn't mean to offend them by leaving, but the Liturgy went longer than I expected it to and my husband would not have been happy had I stayed.

I plan on calling Father Damien this week to explain.

Jenny

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69505 04/07/03 10:26 PM
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Jenny Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
That is why I think it is wrong to encourage Catholics to visit such Churches.

Alex
Since I'm not Catholic, I suppose it was ok for the Administrator to encourage me to visit.
wink

Janka

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69506 04/07/03 10:29 PM
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Jenny Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by Robert Horvath.:
Slava Isusu Christu!
My dear, in Orthodox Churches if you are new you must present yourself, out of courtesy, to the presbyter before Divine Liturgy so that he knows whether you are Orthodox or non-Orthodox; for Orthodox Father would inquire as to the state of their soul and their last Confession. The woman was wrong in giving you the antidoron. Next time you go tell the priest what happened, ask his forgiveness and blessing.
I plan on calling him before next Sunday. He actually did know that I was not Orthodox. I told him how I was technically still Presbyterian, but had been attending a Byzantine Catholic parish.

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69507 04/07/03 10:39 PM
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Jenny Offline OP
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Thanks to everyone who responded. I'm feeling much better now. smile

I will call Father Damien this week to speak with him about everything.

I don't see myself becoming Orthodox (not in communion with Rome). All those passages from the Church fathers that I've been reading lately like:

"If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon who the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (Cyprian of Carthage)

...keep me headed toward the Catholic Church.

Jenny

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69508 04/07/03 10:50 PM
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Robert Horvath Offline
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Dear Sister-in-Christ Jenny,

May our Lord bless your journey!

What a bold step to go from the Calvinist tradition toward the East! It must be exciting for you! No, I am sure that the ROCOR priest will be very helpful to you and you will experience God's love.

What an encouragement you are!

Our God-Beloved Alex:

Peace in Christ our God!

Yes, indeed, "half baked" biggrin

The Sinner in the Hands of an Angry God (According to Jonathan Edwards and possibly John Calvin), wink


Robert Horvath

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69509 04/07/03 11:04 PM
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Perichoresis Offline
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Alex wrote:
Quote
The blessed Bread was taken home by Christians after, in the early Church, it was forbidden for laity to take Holy Communion itself home for purposes of communing daily at morning prayers.
Alex, could you clarify yourself here, please. The earliest evidence of the antidoron in the East, I believe, is the 9th century; but we do know that as early as the second century the baptized would take the Blessed Sacrament home with them for private communion during the week.

Fr Alvin Kimel+

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69510 04/08/03 12:14 AM
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Dear in Christ,

This is an interesting topic! It seems that there are several things being discussed though.

The bread and wine (perhaps water is some places) that I know to be taken right after receiving Holy Communion is called "zapivka" as far as I know and its sole purpose is to wash down the Sacred Species. This Greek Catholic site make sthe distinction very clear. Here is something older that I found that might be helpful . Is it called antidoron by some?

The antidoron I know is bread alone that is distributed at the end of Divine Liturgy (or presanctified). The name is said to mean "instead of the Gifts." Here are some links for that, one Catholic and two from the OCA website, here is one and here is the other .

Mironvanije is of course anointing with oil (from miro) and is associated with Vigil/Litija. The association seems to be exclusively with Litija among the Ruthenians. This bread is often served with wine by the wine being poured over it. (Those were blessed at the Litija.) Here is a link .

Tony

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69511 04/08/03 05:04 AM
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Diak Offline
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Robert, I am not sure I was wrong in the previous post as you suggested. You might be confusing zapivka with antidoron. My recommendation to Jenny concerned antidoron, that is why I said antidoron and not zapivka. Had I ment zapivka after Communion I would have said zapivka. That was what she was describing with the wine. Wine is not given at the end of the Liturgy as antidoron, but rather as zapivka immediately after Communion. No one should take the zapivka unless they have communicated with the Holy Mysteries.

And also I don't understand why the matushka would be giving "leftover antidoron" after Communion as the antidoron proper would not have been given until the end of the Liturgy, unless it was left from a previous Liturgy which I don't think would be done.

The zapivka bread and wine are distinct from the antidoron given at the end of the Liturgy. Zapivka (consisting of bread and wine) is only given to those who have received the Holy Mysteries to cleanse the palate. I think perhaps in some OCA parishes the blessed antidoron is used for both of these functions and separate prosphora is not used for zapivka. So the remaining bread from zapivka is "recycled" for antidoron at the end of the Liturgy.

Antidoron is brought out separately, is blessed separately (the zapivka is actually not blessed at all) and given at the end to all who have not received communion and the faithful often take the antidoron home along with the commemorative prosphora loaves that were blessed with the names of the faithful that were offered with them.

You are right about talking things over with the priest. That is a must to avoid a scandal or being a liturgical paraiah. I have been invited at ROCOR parishes to take the Antidoron at the end of the Liturgy, but only after talking to the pastors before the Liturgy began.

But consistent with Brendan's post I also have never been turned down for the antidoron, even in ROCOR parishes. I was lectured about these differences between zapivka and antidoron by a very knowledgable ROCOR priest who was a former Baptist convert who had read more Slavonic sluzhebniks and liturgical rubrics than I even knew existed.

But as with most Byzantine usages there is a substantial difference in the way that the Zapivka/antidoron practices are used, not only between the churches of Greek and Slavic traditions but even within these.

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69512 04/08/03 05:17 AM
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Diak Offline
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Dear Reader Joseph, with regard to Lazarus Saturday if you are following the traditional "strict" fast caviar is actually appointed for Lazarus Saturday!

Only the fasting is mitigated if following the strict fast. Still no meat or dairy until Pascha... :rolleyes:

Re: ROCOR Liturgy #69513 04/08/03 02:15 PM
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Robert --

Hmmm. The Antiochian and Greek priests I have seen do this aren't converts. The AA priest is an Arab-American cradle Orthodox, while the Greek priest is, well, Greek-American, of course -- and still no questions when the antidoron is distributed by the priest at the end of the liturgy -- they distribute it to all who come to venerate the cross as a matter of course, and I've never once seen them hold back the piece of antidoron if a visitor tells them they are not Orthodox.

I suppose this is one of those practices that varies from priest to priest, but I can say that in the parishes here on the East Coast, I haven't seen the distribution of the antidoron treated as gingerly as you describe it is handled in the Alaskan parishes you mention.

Brendan

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